Will Justify get DQ'd?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

What is your end goal?

What do you want to see happen? The end of American horse racing? More transparency? The end of California racing even though you live in California?

What is it that you are looking for the sport to do?

And no, 'be fair' isn't an answer. Nor is 'fair racing across the board', cuz we all know that ain't happening anytime soon either.

What is it, about this case that you really want to see as a change?

1. I want drug testing that is similar to what the sports that have good drug testing have. It won't be perfect, there's no such thing as perfect, but a lot of sports just efficiently and quickly suspend people for serious periods of time for failing drug tests.

(EDIT: And specifically in this case, I want horse racing boards to face punishment if they don't make their rulings in open public hearings, and if someone is going to be let off the hook for a drug test, it should be done in clear view of the public so that there are no sweetheart deals and such actions are supported by the evidence.)

2. I want safe racetracks. My feeling is that synthetic tracks and well-maintained turf courses are safer than dirt, so I'd like to see us go in that direction. It is probably possible as technology matures to design more "dirt-like" synthetics.

3. I want dishonesty in the sport to carry a cost. Dishonesty is very corrosive to a sport that relies on the betting public to finance it. People don't like betting things they don't think are honest. As a result of that, I would like to see the press that regularly covers the sport, such as the industry publications and TVG, to regularly work on exposing wrongdoing in the sport, so that we don't have to get in the situation where we complain that the New York Times was unfair to us.

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Bloodhorse would have never written ANY article if it hadn't been for Joe Drape.

I am truly sick of the racing press ignoring and doing no investigative reporting on the dark sides of the sport, and then publishing articles minimizing or parroting industry spin after an outside publication calls the sport out.

If Bloodhorse wants any credibility on these sorts of issues, start doing exposes itself. Start offending your advertisers.

The evidence and the logic in this matter do not meet the threshold of believability, when it comes to accusing someone of being nefarious.

The claim that someone on the Baffert team felt the need to juice superhot horse on the eve of a high-profile race seems farfetched. LOL laughable, actually.

I have no problem with people demanding more public access. But that is a different matter.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by clocker7

The evidence and the logic in this matter do not meet the threshold of believability, when it comes to accusing someone of being nefarious.

The claim that someone on the Baffert team felt the need to juice superhot horse on the eve of a high-profile race seems farfetched. LOL laughable, actually.

I have no problem with people demanding more public access. But that is a different matter.

I have no idea. It's possible you are right.

But I am not going to believe anything just because the Bloodhorse or Paulick or TVG says it. I think we need a full investigation of this.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

1. I want drug testing that is similar to what the sports that have good drug testing have. It won't be perfect, there's no such thing as perfect, but a lot of sports just efficiently and quickly suspend people for serious periods of time for failing drug tests.

(EDIT: And specifically in this case, I want horse racing boards to face punishment if they don't make their rulings in open public hearings, and if someone is going to be let off the hook for a drug test, it should be done in clear view of the public so that there are no sweetheart deals and such actions are supported by the evidence.)

2. I want safe racetracks. My feeling is that synthetic tracks and well-maintained turf courses are safer than dirt, so I'd like to see us go in that direction. It is probably possible as technology matures to design more "dirt-like" synthetics.

3. I want dishonesty in the sport to carry a cost. Dishonesty is very corrosive to a sport that relies on the betting public to finance it. People don't like betting things they don't think are honest. As a result of that, I would like to see the press that regularly covers the sport, such as the industry publications and TVG, to regularly work on exposing wrongdoing in the sport, so that we don't have to get in the situation where we complain that the New York Times was unfair to us.

1. Name 1 professional sport that has drug testing to a standard you believe is above and beyond horse racing.

2. I don't give a **** what you feel is safe. Nor do racetracks and money. Make a national charge to make every track a 'safe haven' of synthetics. Santa and Del Mar and Keeneland didn't change for safety, they changed for money.

3. Pretty sure we all do from this side of the fence. Tell me the last time you felt you got all the reasonable betting information on a single game in the NFL, college, NHL, or MLB? Sure they may release data on injuries and such, but that is a 1 to 2 time a week event for a single team, while you can bet on horses just about every 2 to 3 minutes on the weekend.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

1. Name 1 professional sport that has drug testing to a standard you believe is above and beyond horse racing.

2. I don't give a **** what you feel is safe. Nor do racetracks and money. Make a national charge to make every track a 'safe haven' of synthetics. Santa and Del Mar and Keeneland didn't change for safety, they changed for money.

3. Pretty sure we all do from this side of the fence. Tell me the last time you felt you got all the reasonable betting information on a single game in the NFL, college, NHL, or MLB? Sure they may release data on injuries and such, but that is a 1 to 2 time a week event for a single team, while you can bet on horses just about every 2 to 3 minutes on the weekend.

1. Basically every WADA sport.

2. This has been debated ad nauseam.

3. You can't compare betting information in horse racing to other sports..Until very recently, most sports bets were illegal and the sanctioning bodies opposed betting. So why should the NFL, which didn't want you betting football in the first place, provide you with a fair betting pool. This IS changing now, but we are in tbe very early stages of it.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

1. Basically every WADA sport.

2. This has been debated ad nauseam.

3. You can't compare betting information in horse racing to other sports..Until very recently, most sports bets were illegal and the sanctioning bodies opposed betting. So why should the NFL, which didn't want you betting football in the first place, provide you with a fair betting pool. This IS changing now, but we are in tbe very early stages of it.

Not sure if serious.

All sports have been wagered in Vegas for decades. The NFL has released injury reports solely due to Vegas wagering for decades. Jimmy the Greek was giving out winners on a major network in the 70s with 'inside' information.

People in every state in this country have been betting sports legally, or illegally for decades. What rock have you been living under?

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

What is your end goal?

What do you want to see happen? The end of American horse racing?

A member says they want good drug testing, safe racing, horse racing boards with transparency, dishonesty to carry a cost, and publications that report on the industry/sport to report objecctively and honestly...........

And instead of cheering these measures as the right thing to do, member is accused of wanting to end American horse racing.

Which is humorous because if anything, these are all the very things that ARE killing American horse racing and removing it's credibility, making it a laughing stock and causing long time fans to walk away from the sport they love.

We don't need more apologists for the status quo, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

2. I don't give a **** what you feel is safe. Nor do racetracks and money. .

Well, you should care. And so should racetracks and money. Because they will be getting less fans and less money, as time goes on if things continue like they are. Once you lose enough credibility you are no longer considered a good "investment"....... in terms of personal interest, money, time or anything else.

I'm not even going to tell you this year just how MANY personal acquaintances who have been in love with this sport for 20+ years are just walking away. I also see it with long time forum members I am reading on many places. This is critical

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by clicknow

A member says they want good drug testing, safe racing, horse racing boards with transparency, dishonesty to carry a cost, and publications that report on the industry/sport to report objecctively and honestly...........

And instead of cheering these measures as the right thing to do, member is accused of wanting to end American horse racing.

Which is humorous because if anything, these are all the very things that ARE killing American horse racing and removing it's credibility, making it a laughing stock and causing long time fans to walk away from the sport they love.

We don't need more apologists for the status quo, that's for sure.



Well, you should care. And so should racetracks and money. Because they will be getting less fans and less money, as time goes on if things continue like they are. Once you lose enough credibility you are no longer considered a good "investment".

Pretty sure all of us here would love that.


That isn't reality.


When a filly sells for $8.2 million in this past week that will likely never run a race, that is essentially all you need to know about American horse racing.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

When a filly sells for $8.2 million in this past week that will likely never run a race, that is essentially all you need to know about American horse racing.

It Ain't called the Sport of KINGS for nothing...

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

That isn't reality.

Reality is not a fixed point in time.

We used to tie elephants up in chains and keep them in solitary.... now we know they have complex emotional and social lives and family units and relationships.

When you know better, you DO better.


Some hold on tight, terrified of changing anything, lest they be purposefully engaged in a change effort that may not turn out the way they hope it will. So they voluntarily *accept* that this is the way things are, call it *reality*, and please do not rock the boat because even scarier things might happen if we agree to change.

The thing is, when a situation becomes unacceptable to enough people, it needs changing. Change is scary, but the alternative is scarier.

Horse racing is perched precisely on that precipice RIGHT NOW. It's do-or-die time.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

Not sure if serious.

All sports have been wagered in Vegas for decades. The NFL has released injury reports solely due to Vegas wagering for decades. Jimmy the Greek was giving out winners on a major network in the 70s with 'inside' information.

People in every state in this country have been betting sports legally, or illegally for decades. What rock have you been living under?

I am aware of that. Nonetheless, you can't complain about the shortcomings of information provided by a sport that opposes gambling. Horse racing is its own sort of thing, where the tracks conduct the betting pools and receive a cut.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

Pretty sure all of us here would love that.


That isn't reality.


When a filly sells for $8.2 million in this past week that will likely never run a race, that is essentially all you need to know about American horse racing.

Your criticism of the sales is true enough, but it's worth noting that back in the 1980's, when the sport was REALLY HEALTHY in California (80,000 people at the Santa Anita Handicap, 28,000 average daily attendance), Seattle Dancer sold for $13.1 million, the equivalent of $30.5 million in 2019 dollars. He raced 5 times, won twice, and won about $150,000 in US dollars. At stud, he was basically a bust- the only significant offspring I remember was Pike Place Dancer, who won the Kentucky Oaks when the Kentucky Oaks was still a somewhat weaker race than it is now, and didn't win much else.

So ridiculous yearling prices are probably not much of a reflection of anything except pure gambing.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Your criticism of the sales is true enough, but it's worth noting that back in the 1980's, when the sport was REALLY HEALTHY in California (80,000 people at the Santa Anita Handicap, 28,000 average daily attendance), Seattle Dancer sold for $13.1 million, the equivalent of $30.5 million in 2019 dollars. He raced 5 times, won twice, and won about $150,000 in US dollars. At stud, he was basically a bust- the only significant offspring I remember was Pike Place Dancer, who won the Kentucky Oaks when the Kentucky Oaks was still a somewhat weaker race than it is now, and didn't win much else.

So ridiculous yearling prices are probably not much of a reflection of anything except pure gambing.

He was a male horse.

The Green Monkey sold for $16 Million in 2006.

Anybody remember a 2YO Female selling for anything over $2 or $3 million?

Think about it. She has to rear a colt or filly for the next 16 years that averages $500K a sale to break even. And that doesn't include the stud fees, or upkeep, or vet fees, or even a year or two off for a broodmare.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I think we need a full investigation of this.

What? and not rely on press releases from people involved in the very coverup itself and/or those who have had Baffert train some of their horses?

Seriously though, that was my next question dilane. I think there were too many violations, inconsistencies, and a cover up and I think it involves money they should be returned to rightful winners, etc. if what I'm reading is true.

I think this needs a full investigation and not by those w/in the racing industry.

Am I correct that if Ruiz brings a lawsuit that evidence must be provided, and statements in press relases will not suffice. If this would make for a more thorough investigation of facts then I am all for it.

Even the hay provider would have to provide testimony


Meanwhile, would Baffert be forced to divulge the ingredients of his special sauce that everyone knows about that makes all the horses look the same, like Arnold? I'm already putting the ingredients together in my head, and I think jimson weed is one of them.........but they used too much or something this time.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by clicknow

What? and not rely on press releases from people involved in the very coverup itself and/or those who have had Baffert train some of their horses?

Seriously though, that was my next question dilane. I think there were too many violations, inconsistencies, and a cover up and I think it involves money they should be returned to rightful winners, etc. if what I'm reading is true.

I think this needs a full investigation and not by those w/in the racing industry.

Am I correct that if Ruiz brings a lawsuit that evidence must be provided, and statements in press relases will not suffice. If this would make for a more thorough investigation of facts then I am all for it.

Even the hay provider would have to provide testimony


Meanwhile, would Baffert be forced to divulge the ingredients of his special sauce that everyone knows about that makes all the horses look the same, like Arnold? I'm already putting the ingredients together in my head, and I think jimson weed is one of them.........but they used too much or something this time.

Ruis has to survive a motion to dismiss before he can use the lawsuit to issue subpoenas and take discovery. And that will be tough.