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Old 04-22-2020, 07:39 PM   #46
hcap
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Originally Posted by ElKabong View Post
You still haven't answered my question. I doubt you ever will because it doesn't fit your agenda

How many of these deaths racked up to C19 didn't involve the virus + complications ?

If the deaths involved cancer patients, diabetics etc, the numbers are fiction

And you know it
Your same objections may apply to all infectious diseases. Sure it has tio be verified in all cases, but throughout the world medical professionals tend to be correct than crackpots of your political agenda.

The deaths at Elmhurst hospital in Queens NYC, requiring refrigerated trucks to store and remove the bodies was not enough of a miscalculation to deny the seriousness of covid-19. You tell me percentage-wise, what should this be...

Coronavirus Cases:
846,692
Deaths:
47,537

Our first death was Feb 29th. I have never experienced any seasonal flu that killed and hospitalized so many, so rapidly.

Tell me how should the fatality number above be adjusted? Is it off by 5% or 50%? But consider it is off the other way first....

US coronavirus death count likely an underestimate. Here's why
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/healt...ner/index.html

This could be especially true because the reporting data can lag by an average of one to two weeks, according to the latest guidance from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's.

'What we are seeing is a tip of an iceberg'

When it comes to an accurate count of Covid-19 deaths in the US, "we really are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and a lot of it has to do with the tests we have available," Dr. Panagis Galiatsatos, a pulmonary and critical care physician on the front lines at Johns Hopkins Medicine in Baltimore, said Monday morning.
..................................................

And

28,000 Missing Deaths:
Tracking the True Toll of the Coronavirus Crisis

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ng-deaths.html
At least 28,000 more people have died during the coronavirus pandemic over the last month than the official Covid-19 death counts report, a review of mortality data in 11 countries shows providing a clearer, if still incomplete, picture of the toll of the crisis.

In the last month, far more people died in these countries than in previous years, The New York Times found. The totals include deaths from Covid-19 as well as those from other causes, likely including people who could not be treated as hospitals became overwhelmed.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap View Post
Your same objections may apply to all infectious diseases. Sure it has tio be verified in all cases, but throughout the world medical professionals tend to be correct than crackpots of your political agenda.

The deaths at Elmhurst hospital in Queens NYC, requiring refrigerated trucks to store and remove the bodies was not enough of a miscalculation to deny the seriousness of covid-19. You tell me percentage-wise, what should this be...

Coronavirus Cases:
846,692
Deaths:
47,537

Our first death was Feb 29th. I have never experienced any seasonal flu that killed and hospitalized so many, so rapidly.

Tell me how should the fatality number above be adjusted? Is it off by 5% or 50%? But consider it is off the other way first....

US coronavirus death count likely an underestimate. Here's why
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/healt...ner/index.html

This could be especially true because the reporting data can lag by an average of one to two weeks, according to the latest guidance from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's.

'What we are seeing is a tip of an iceberg'

When it comes to an accurate count of Covid-19 deaths in the US, "we really are just seeing the tip of the iceberg and a lot of it has to do with the tests we have available," Dr. Panagis Galiatsatos, a pulmonary and critical care physician on the front lines at Johns Hopkins Medicine in Baltimore, said Monday morning.
..................................................

And

28,000 Missing Deaths:
Tracking the True Toll of the Coronavirus Crisis

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ng-deaths.html
At least 28,000 more people have died during the coronavirus pandemic over the last month than the official Covid-19 death counts report, a review of mortality data in 11 countries shows providing a clearer, if still incomplete, picture of the toll of the crisis.

In the last month, far more people died in these countries than in previous years, The New York Times found. The totals include deaths from Covid-19 as well as those from other causes, likely including people who could not be treated as hospitals became overwhelmed.
You still haven't answered the question I asked. Surprise surprise

As for political agenda, I have none. Go fish that somewhere else, I'm not biting

For the rest of your post, it's useless. Post hard cold figures of deaths caused by c19, and c19 alone. Put the cancer patients, diabetics, morbidly obese, those with pneumonia aside. They didn't die of c19/ Otherwise you're of no help
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ElKabong View Post
Put the cancer patients, diabetics, morbidly obese, those with pneumonia aside. They didn't die of c19/
Now THAT sounds like some sort of agenda...would you not agree?
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ElKabong View Post
You still haven't answered the question I asked. Surprise surprise

As for political agenda, I have none. Go fish that somewhere else, I'm not biting

For the rest of your post, it's useless. Post hard cold figures of deaths caused by c19, and c19 alone. Put the cancer patients, diabetics, morbidly obese, those with pneumonia aside. They didn't die of c19/ Otherwise you're of no help
You are full of it. I told you there may be miscalculations and anyone with half a brain knows that. I am telling you it is the experts in medicine and epidemiology who have a better handle on the data than amateurs who whine it's wrong.

You are the one who refuses to tell me what corrections should be made. Do you have a link supporting your claim of "without data supporting deaths that aren't due to c19+ complications."

As far as I can tell, other than PA's original article about "herd immunity" in Sweden, I am the only one posting credentialed sources. You are absent.
(as usual)

And I just posted two indicating fatalities in fact, may be underestimated.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:29 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by hcap View Post
You are full of it. I told you there may be miscalculations and anyone with half a brain knows that. I am telling you it is the experts in medicine and epidemiology who have a better handle on the data than amateurs who whine it's wrong.

You are the one who refuses to tell me what corrections should be made. Do you have a link supporting your claim of "without data supporting deaths that aren't due to c19+ complications."

As far as I can tell, other than PA's original article about "herd immunity" in Sweden, I am the only one posting credentialed sources. You are absent.
(as usual)

And I just posted two indicating fatalities in fact, may be underestimated.
You act as if the "experts in medicine and epidemiology" are all honest and beyond reproach, with no agenda whatsoever.....Comical and nave, at the very least....Yeah, I'll never question what they say Harry, I'm just going along with the majority of the mindless enslaved sheep, ready for shearing and slaughter at their command.....Hunters have now become the Hunted, indeed.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:32 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElKabong View Post
You still haven't answered my question. I doubt you ever will because it doesn't fit your agenda

How many of these deaths racked up to C19 didn't involve the virus + complications ?

If the deaths involved cancer patients, diabetics etc, the numbers are fiction

And you know it
Excellent post, and so true.
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by hcap View Post
You are full of it. I told you there may be miscalculations and anyone with half a brain knows that. I am telling you it is the experts in medicine and epidemiology who have a better handle on the data than amateurs who whine it's wrong.

You are the one who refuses to tell me what corrections should be made. Do you have a link supporting your claim of "without data supporting deaths that aren't due to c19+ complications."

As far as I can tell, other than PA's original article about "herd immunity" in Sweden, I am the only one posting credentialed sources. You are absent.
(as usual)

And I just posted two indicating fatalities in fact, may be underestimated.
You still haven't answered my question. How many of these deaths didn't involve severe / life threatening pre existing conditions?

If you don't know, just admit it.
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:46 PM   #53
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Now THAT sounds like some sort of agenda...would you not agree?
No I wouldn't. I'm just trying to get SOMEONE to nail down the number of deaths from c19 that didn't involve serious pre existing issues
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:47 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ElKabong View Post
You still haven't answered my question. How many of these deaths didn't involve severe / life threatening pre existing conditions?

If you don't know, just admit it.
You ask this of someone who has been in lock down in his bunker for the better part of a decade?
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:49 PM   #55
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No I wouldn't. I'm just trying to get SOMEONE to nail down the number of deaths from c19 that didn't involve serious pre existing issues
I wasn't talking about YOU.

I was talking about the AGENDA of what you are asking hcap about....the agenda of masking the numbers....

Sorry if you took it the wrong way
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Old 04-23-2020, 12:18 AM   #56
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You are proposing incompetence in data collection. And are implying all previous scientific studies have similar DIFFICULTIES.

Ok I agree. But I would rather at this ppint believe the world's experts reasoned conclusions rather than a bunch of right wing paranoid amateur crackpots denying the basics of epidemiology.

All the data is from John's Hopkins., the CDC, the WHO,and others who do this for a living. Rather than a bunch of paranoid horse players and gamblers trying to re-do the laws of the universe to their own liking.......

Meanwhile....

Sweden has nearly 10 times the number of COVID-19-related deaths than its Nordic neighbors. Here's where it went wrong.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...erently-2020-4

Sweden: 600,000 Coronavirus Infections In Stockholm By May 1, Model Estimates
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidni.../#48233d3178d6
it is too early to say they did it wrong


what if in 3 months everyone there has been exposed and deaths basically stop, yet some 'lockdown' places have slow deaths for 15 months?



I like gov Cuomo's plan of chasing down all positives and putting them in hotel rooms ... great spending money you don't have
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Old 04-23-2020, 04:29 AM   #57
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You still haven't answered my question. How many of these deaths didn't involve severe / life threatening pre existing conditions?

If you don't know, just admit it.
So are you suggesting someone who has a pr-existing condition has not really died from this disease? Crackpotomania popular in uber rightie circles.

Doers that make it less dangerous or less lethal? Skewing the numbers into fake news???

I keep telling you and your buddies, epidemiologists have a better handle on that sort of data than horse playing pandemic deniers.

Difficult determination until we have more data on this novel virus.
However, experts can take an educated guess. 100 times more educated than the fringe you hang out with......

No underlying conditions in 5% of coronavirus deaths in English ospitals
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...lish-hospitals

The proportion of people dying of coronavirus who do not have underlying conditions has risen in recent weeks, from below 1% to about 5% of the total, Guardian analysis has found.

The analysis, based on daily statements released by NHS England from 5 March onwards, found that the proportion of people dying with no underlying conditions had increased sharply in the last three weeks.
.................................................. ......
Then again, The CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6913e2.htm

Preliminary Estimates of the Prevalence of Selected Underlying Health Conditions Among Patients with Coronavirus Disease 2019 — United States, February 12–March 28, 2020

Among 122,653 U.S. COVID-19 cases reported to CDC as of March 28, 2020, 7,162 (5.8%) patients had data available pertaining to underlying health conditions or potential risk factors; among these patients, higher percentages of patients with underlying conditions were admitted to the hospital and to an ICU than patients without reported underlying conditions. These results are consistent with findings from China and Italy, which suggest that patients with underlying health conditions and risk factors, including, but not limited to, diabetes mellitus, hypertension, COPD, coronary artery disease, cerebrovascular disease, chronic renal disease, and smoking, might be at higher risk for severe disease or death from COVID-19 (3,4). This analysis was limited by small numbers and missing data because of the burden placed on reporting health departments with rapidly rising case counts, and these findings might change as additional data become available.
............................................

Answer me, does a pre-existing condition invalidate that the patient died from covid-19? Does a pre-existing condition skew the numbers, and if so how much?

Does that make covid-19 less dangerous or less lethal? I keep telling you and your buddies, epidemiologists have a better handle on that sort of data than horse playing pandemic deniers. And we won't be certain until much later
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Old 04-23-2020, 11:41 AM   #58
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Again, and not at all surprising, hcap totally misses the point.

You have two groups of patient.

Group 1 - have COVID and NO pre-existing conditions or other complications.
Group 2 - have COVID and HAVE complicating factors, age, other illnesses.....

So what if death rate for Group 1 is significantly lower than that of Groups 2?

It make no sense to mitigate both groups the same way.
Now, what is in Group 2, there is a Group 3 - those with the added risk and in nursing homes? And that death rate is through the roof.

Treat COVID as if it is one disease impacting everyone the same way is nonsense. I am in Groups 2. I should be more cautious than those in Group 1.
But to penalize those in Group 1 the same as me, is nonsense.

Looking only at the curve for Group 1 will give a better picture of the COVID in and of itself.
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Old 04-23-2020, 12:59 PM   #59
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Again, and not at all surprising, hcap totally misses the point.

You have two groups of patient.

Group 1 - have COVID and NO pre-existing conditions or other complications.
Group 2 - have COVID and HAVE complicating factors, age, other illnesses.....

So what if death rate for Group 1 is significantly lower than that of Groups 2?

It make no sense to mitigate both groups the same way.
Now, what is in Group 2, there is a Group 3 - those with the added risk and in nursing homes? And that death rate is through the roof.

Treat COVID as if it is one disease impacting everyone the same way is nonsense. I am in Groups 2. I should be more cautious than those in Group 1.
But to penalize those in Group 1 the same as me, is nonsense.

Looking only at the curve for Group 1 will give a better picture of the COVID in and of itself.
In order for your ridiculous conspiracy theory ti function, you are assuming there is a vast cosmic international democratic,. liberal, globalist conspiracy to defraud your good ole imbecilic boys out of you life savings by enlisting 97% of the worlds expert medical professionals, epidemiologists and professors of infelicitous diseases, and destroy western civilization as we take down your Moron?

I am assuming you crackpots are crazier than bats out of hell.
.
Are Al Gore and Greta Thunberg in cahoots with these damn evil doers as well?

Gee sounds like climate denial has a new life
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Old 04-23-2020, 01:12 PM   #60
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I do not think you have ever
BEN Stupider
BEN more paranoid and
BEN more gullible
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