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12-04-2021, 07:46 AM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Location: st louis
Posts: 2,986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
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Well Andy, according to Baffert's attorney you are dead wrong! Robertson is stating that in the Kentucky rules ONLY betamethasone acetate is addressed as a rules violation and valerate is not a rules violation. You can't disqualify a horse if he didn't have an illegal drug in his system. For all you Baffert haters you are going to lose this one. I recall several on here who stated with absolute certainty that Baffert injected the horse. I wonder if they will man up and admit they were wrong. I doubt it!
__________________
You will never achieve 100% if 99% is okay!
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12-04-2021, 08:16 AM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zico20
Well Andy, according to Baffert's attorney you are dead wrong! Robertson is stating that in the Kentucky rules ONLY betamethasone acetate is addressed as a rules violation and valerate is not a rules violation. You can't disqualify a horse if he didn't have an illegal drug in his system. For all you Baffert haters you are going to lose this one. I recall several on here who stated with absolute certainty that Baffert injected the horse. I wonder if they will man up and admit they were wrong. I doubt it!
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Baffert is and has been cheating for years IMO. And for all the people who seem to want him to skate let me ask a question.
We can go back over 30 years and we've seen a parade of high profile athletes come up with tremendous and almost other worldly performances who've been caught cheating. They all denied it and they all kept doing it under scrutiny till they were caught. Given Bafferts history why would anyone believe he's clean?
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12-04-2021, 08:28 AM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Location: st louis
Posts: 2,986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
Baffert is and has been cheating for years IMO. And for all the people who seem to want him to skate let me ask a question.
We can go back over 30 years and we've seen a parade of high profile athletes come up with tremendous and almost other worldly performances who've been caught cheating. They all denied it and they all kept doing it under scrutiny till they were caught. Given Bafferts history why would anyone believe he's clean?
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We are only talking about this one particular incident. The tests, according to the lawyers, has scientifically proven there was no injection. Now it will be up to your side to prove there was. It seems you want him guilty on this one because of things done in the past, and that is not right. I always knew he didn't inject the horse. No one is stupid enough to do that knowing there is a drug test that specifically tests for that infraction that will lead to a disqualification. Andy, yes or no, you are always going to believe he injected the horse and cheated.
__________________
You will never achieve 100% if 99% is okay!
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12-04-2021, 08:35 AM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zico20
We are only talking about this one particular incident. The tests, according to the lawyers, has scientifically proven there was no injection. Now it will be up to your side to prove there was. It seems you want him guilty on this one because of things done in the past, and that is not right. I always knew he didn't inject the horse. No one is stupid enough to do that knowing there is a drug test that specifically tests for that infraction that will lead to a disqualification. Andy, yes or no, you are always going to believe he injected the horse and cheated.
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This is a well established pattern. A positive in the Oaks and the Derby are the biggest ones. In addition to the positives, we know from the Servis/Navarro transcripts that many performance enhancers that are undetectable will show as positives for therapeutics. Then you can add in the horse deaths.
This is an Industry/Regulator problem and it's on them to handle this. Nothing will change my opinion of the guy or what he does.
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12-04-2021, 09:24 AM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Location: st louis
Posts: 2,986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
This is a well established pattern. A positive in the Oaks and the Derby are the biggest ones. In addition to the positives, we know from the Servis/Navarro transcripts that many performance enhancers that are undetectable will show as positives for therapeutics. Then you can add in the horse deaths.
This is an Industry/Regulator problem and it's on them to handle this. Nothing will change my opinion of the guy or what he does.
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So everyone who is saying Baffert still purposely cheated with Medina Spirit by injecting him will have to argue that Baffert gave the horse a second injection of something that switched the readout from acetate to valerate. I would love to hear what can make that happen.
One more thing, it is obvious that Churchill knew from the beginning what is in the Kentucky rules and how it was written otherwise Medina would have been disqualified after the second test. No one disputed that betamethasone was in his system or the amounts after the second test. Churchill has known all along that it specifically states acetate results in an automatic disqualification and they had to know that a cream would show valerate, which isn't mentioned as a violation. Churchill was hoping these tests would come back their way and it didn't. Now lift the suspension and lets all move on.
__________________
You will never achieve 100% if 99% is okay!
Last edited by zico20; 12-04-2021 at 09:25 AM.
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12-04-2021, 09:35 AM
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#21
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zico20
We are only talking about this one particular incident. The tests, according to the lawyers, has scientifically proven there was no injection. Now it will be up to your side to prove there was. It seems you want him guilty on this one because of things done in the past, and that is not right. I always knew he didn't inject the horse. No one is stupid enough to do that knowing there is a drug test that specifically tests for that infraction that will lead to a disqualification. Andy, yes or no, you are always going to believe he injected the horse and cheated.
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But he's stupid enough to have horses test positive in the Oaks and Derby in consecutive years.
At best he's careless and at worst he knew exactly what he was doing. Regardless, shouldn't we expect more from the face of the sport?
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12-04-2021, 09:43 AM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,764
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this is like everything else in this country, when you have good lawyers you get off the hook. i have seen plenty of rich men beat murder raps with good attorneys, while poor defendants who didn't do the murder either rot in jail or get executed.
this is how the world turns and it will never change. in fairness to fair, most people knew what this outcome was going to be the minute the case started.
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12-04-2021, 09:50 AM
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#23
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Just another Facist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Now in Houston
Posts: 52,805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
this is like everything else in this country, when you have good lawyers you get off the hook. i have seen plenty of rich men beat murder raps with good attorneys, while poor defendants who didn't do the murder either rot in jail or get executed.
this is how the world turns and it will never change. in fairness to fair, most people knew what this outcome was going to be the minute the case started.
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Less then 20 executions a year in the last five years in the United States.
How many do you think were innocent? 99% are absolutely without a doubt guilty.
Don’t let the newsman and the Hollywood elites influence you.
__________________
WE ARE THE DUMBEST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET!
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12-04-2021, 10:20 AM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Location: st louis
Posts: 2,986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1mileto7Fcutback
But he's stupid enough to have horses test positive in the Oaks and Derby in consecutive years.
At best he's careless and at worst he knew exactly what he was doing. Regardless, shouldn't we expect more from the face of the sport?
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He was careless in that he didn't read the ingredients on the label for the ointment. That is on him and he learned a valuable lesson that put him in a bad spot. You can bet he will use a different brand next time if the situation arises.
__________________
You will never achieve 100% if 99% is okay!
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12-04-2021, 10:25 AM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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I think there’s more than enough out there to let bettors decide if they do or do not want to wager on a race that Baffert is involved in. That’s the bettor’s only outlet to show dissatisfaction
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12-04-2021, 10:53 AM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,613
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It took way too long to get this done, but this will probably result in a shorter suspension (or suspension already served) and they’ll keep fighting the DQ in court. As far as I know the rule doesn’t distinguish between accidental positive by ointment or purposeful injection. So ultimately the horse should get DQ’d but he should be back in business.
Unless you think he was devious enough to inject the horse, make sure there was no vet or other record of it, and have the ointment excuse all lined up because the horse had a rash at the time he could treat (there are photos of the rash) he was telling the truth or statements by his lawyer are misleading.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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12-04-2021, 11:42 AM
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#27
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zico20
He was careless in that he didn't read the ingredients on the label for the ointment. That is on him and he learned a valuable lesson that put him in a bad spot. You can bet he will use a different brand next time if the situation arises.
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If you actually believe that Baffert is reading ointment labels I have a bridge to sell you.
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12-04-2021, 12:12 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
Baffert is and has been cheating for years IMO. And for all the people who seem to want him to skate let me ask a question.
We can go back over 30 years and we've seen a parade of high profile athletes come up with tremendous and almost other worldly performances who've been caught cheating. They all denied it and they all kept doing it under scrutiny till they were caught. Given Bafferts history why would anyone believe he's clean?
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The problem is there’s difference between speculating and proving someone is cheating.
I’ve repeatedly read that the rules don’t distinguish between source of the positive (injection or ointment). That lead me to believe the horse would get DQ’d either way. Now people here are saying something different.
I assumed most this was about Baffert’s punishment because imo there’s clearly a difference between injecting the horse inside the window and using an ointment.
I also read a quote from some vet that said it would be close to impossible to determine the source of the positive from blood tests.
I wish we could at least get accurate reporting.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
Last edited by classhandicapper; 12-04-2021 at 12:15 PM.
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12-04-2021, 12:26 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zico20
Well Andy, according to Baffert's attorney you are dead wrong! Robertson is stating that in the Kentucky rules ONLY betamethasone acetate is addressed as a rules violation and valerate is not a rules violation. You can't disqualify a horse if he didn't have an illegal drug in his system. For all you Baffert haters you are going to lose this one. I recall several on here who stated with absolute certainty that Baffert injected the horse. I wonder if they will man up and admit they were wrong. I doubt it!
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They can definitely disqualify the horse. Baffert's lawyer will challenge it if they do, and he will lose.
This is a PR operation by Baffert.
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12-04-2021, 02:33 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1,222
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Maybe it would help to have the regulations in front of us?
Here's the language in the withdrawal guidelines:
12) The following have a 14 day stand down period for intra-articular injection (IA). Any IA corticosteroid injection within 14 days is a violation:
- Betamethasone-Intra-articular (IA) at 9 mg total dose in a single articular space; NOTE: Withdrawal time should be increased for use of betamethasone products with a ratio of >1:1 betamethasone acetate to betamethasone sodium phosphate. Intramuscular administration is associated with substantially longer withdrawal times.
And this from the medication classifications:
(4)(a) Class C drugs, medications, and substances are those that:
(1) Are approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration and have a lesser potential to influence performance in the equine athlete than Class A drugs, medications, and substances and those Class B drugs, medications, and substances that are classified at that level because they have a high potential to influence performance and are approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration; or
(2) Lack approval by the United States Food and Drug Administration, but have pharmacologic effects similar to certain Class D drugs, medications, or substances that are approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration.
(b) Class C shall include:
(names of other drugs)
Betamethasone
(names of other drugs)
So in the withdrawal guidelines it does talk about betamethasone acetate in conjunction with injections. But as you can see - it's simply betamethasone in the Class C classification that drives the penalties.
__________________
Tom in NW Arkansas
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”Past performances are no guarantee of future results.” - Why isn't this disclaimer printed in the Daily Racing Form?
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