Religious

[PaceAdvantage]

Hitchens doesn't have such great things to say about Buddhism either...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Hitchens doesn't have such great things to say about Buddhism either...

Atheists are their own gods.

What I find interesting is that people who spurn God's love are usually the very same ones who turn around and complain about the lack of love in the world for our fellow man.

Boxcar

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Atheists are their own gods.

What I find interesting is that people who spurn God's love are usually the very same ones who turn around and complain about the lack of love in the world for our fellow man.

Boxcar

It's nice to see you've crawled out of your hole of circular reasoning to issue yet another sweeping generalization.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Hitchens doesn't have such great things to say about Buddhism either...

Although I agree with Hitchen's on his criticisms of religion when interpreted literally, I find him a bit short sighted on the non literal. Then again there is no way to prove any of this type of stuff.

When certain things resonate within an individual those things will usually become the beginning of, and articles of faith. For me a psychological interpretation of all religions is what resonates.

Many spiritual traditions start with one's own psychological inner world. Socrates said "Know Thyself" and the Bible "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within" falls right into place. An exposure to things like Zen and meditation and sacred dance and other real practical techniques verified for me certain truths. Can I prove it. No, but I can try to help others to look deeper.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Toxicar

Atheists are their own gods.

What I find interesting is that people who spurn God's love are usually the very same ones who turn around and complain about the lack of love in the world for our fellow man.

Mostly because of anal retentive preachers like you. To you "spurning God's love" is really spurning the Boxcarian version of God's love. Can't blame atheists for spurning hate can we? Sounds quite reasonable to me

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

It's nice to see you've crawled out of your hole of circular reasoning to issue yet another sweeping generalization.

When someone denies the existence of any higher power than himself, that person is clearly implying that he knows everything there is to know about reality to make that claim. Therefore, if he knows everything there is to know, and if he has searched every nook and cranny of the universe for God with his might powers of observation and reasoning, then, yes, in a very real sense he has become like God -- the very deity whom he denies! The atheist is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-present.

The atheist is also sovereign. He is accountable to no higher power. He answers only to himself and to his fellow man if he should break any laws. The atheist does what is right in his own eyes -- just as God performs whatever he wills to accomplish his purposes.

Further, because there is no one higher than man to worship, the atheist winds up worshiping the creation rather than the Creation. The atheist winds up worshiping himself and his brilliant powers of deduction and reasoning and skills in determining that there is no one greater than man.

In fact, atheists also assume a divine office of God -- that of judge! The creature sits in judgment of the Creator. The Pot gets to judge the character and the work of the Potter. The thing molded places himself in the judgment seat of the Molder. The Clay then passes the death sentence on the Creator; thus, there is no God. This fact alone makes them "gods" per the scriptures:

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods '?
NASB

Jesus spoke these words to those who were denying his divinity -- keeping in mind that those who deny the Son, also deny the Father (1Jn 2:23), making them [religious] atheists! And he was alluding to Ps 58:1 wherein David, in the larger context, is calling on God to destroy the unrighteous judges of Israel.

Finally, allow me one more "sweeping generalization": Atheism is a self-defeating philosophy.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Although I agree with Hitchen's on his criticisms of religion when interpreted literally, I find him a bit short sighted on the non literal. Then again there is no way to prove any of this type of stuff.

When certain things resonate within an individual those things will usually become the beginning of, and articles of faith. For me a psychological interpretation of all religions is what resonates.

Many spiritual traditions start with one's own psychological inner world. Socrates said "Know Thyself" and the Bible "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within" falls right into place. An exposure to things like Zen and meditation and sacred dance and other real practical techniques verified for me certain truths. Can I prove it. No, but I can try to help others to look deeper.

Placing Socrates on the level of Jesus is patently absurd, as is placing the Soc's words "know thyself" on par with what Jesus meant by the "kingdom of heaven" or the "kingdom of God".

John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NASB

Those who have not been born of the Holy Spirit have no part in God's kingdom. To the natural man, spiritual things (including the kingdom) are foolishness because he cannot understand them. You have just demonstrated this by implying that the natural man (those who have simply been born through the womb of their mother) can partake freely of the kingdom and enter that kingdom apart from having spiritual life infused into their soul. In your mind, the kingdom is there for anyone who wishes to enter it, regardless of what he believes about GOD and his kingdom. All one has to do is "know thyself" and then he can enter therein. But the spiritual reality is that there is only one source of life, and that is the Author of Life!

And you want to put Socrates in the ring with Jesus? Methinks that would be no contest. (Sorry, Thaskalos.)

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

When someone denies the existence of any higher power than himself, that person is clearly implying that he knows everything there is to know about reality to make that claim. Therefore, if he knows everything there is to know, and if he has searched every nook and cranny of the universe for God with his might powers of observation and reasoning, then, yes, in a very real sense he has become like God -- the very deity whom he denies! The atheist is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-present.

The atheist is also sovereign. He is accountable to no higher power. He answers only to himself and to his fellow man if he should break any laws. The atheist does what is right in his own eyes -- just as God performs whatever he wills to accomplish his purposes.

Further, because there is no one higher than man to worship, the atheist winds up worshiping the creation rather than the Creation. The atheist winds up worshiping himself and his brilliant powers of deduction and reasoning and skills in determining that there is no one greater than man.

In fact, atheists also assume a divine office of God -- that of judge! The creature sits in judgment of the Creator. The Pot gets to judge the character and the work of the Potter. The thing molded places himself in the judgment seat of the Molder. The Clay then passes the death sentence on the Creator; thus, there is no God. This fact alone makes them "gods" per the scriptures:

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods '?
NASB

Jesus spoke these words to those who were denying his divinity -- keeping in mind that those who deny the Son, also deny the Father (1Jn 2:23), making them [religious] atheists! And he was alluding to Ps 58:1 wherein David, in the larger context, is calling on God to destroy the unrighteous judges of Israel.

Finally, allow me one more "sweeping generalization": Atheism is a self-defeating philosophy.

Boxcar

In my opinion, the Atheist is as misguided and stubborn as the religious fanatic...because he has made up his mind about something, without adequate proof for reaching such a conclusion.

The absence of proof that something exists does not definitely prove that it CANNOT possibly exist.

I cannot argue with the Agnostic though...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you want to put Socrates in the ring with Jesus? Methinks that would be no contest. (Sorry, Thaskalos.)

Boxcar

Thaskalos agrees...and so would Socrates, were he still around.

Socrates never claimed to be anything but a mere man...and he was, in fact, quite amused at the thought that he might be the wisest man around.

He traveled as far as he could to discover what made him so much wiser than the rest of the men in Greece, and he came to the following conclusion...which he revealed shortly before he died.

"I have discovered that I don't know a great many things...but I am well AWARE of the fact that I don't know about them. Other wise men that I met ALSO don't know about those same things...but they don't KNOW that they don't know. They live under the misguided notion that they DO know.

So -- since I know my own ignorance, whereas the other "wise" men know it not -- I have now come to believe that I am indeed the wisest man around."

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Mostly because of anal retentive preachers like you. To you "spurning God's love" is really spurning the Boxcarian version of God's love. Can't blame atheists for spurning hate can we? Sounds quite reasonable to me

Well then...why don't you tell me about all the great humanitarian works performed by atheists. How they have gone throughout the whole world and have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, provided relief to the poor, ministered to the sick and have visited the imprisoned. Have I missed HAL all these years -- the Humanitarian Atheists League or something? Maybe HAL has accomplished more for his fellow man than all the Christians missions around the globe?

And remember, all the good works in the world, without love, amount to NOTHING in God's eyes.

1 Cor 13:1-3
13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
NASB

But you ask, "Love for whom"? I would point you to the Law of Moses (which you point to when you think it's convenient) and to what Jesus taught about the two greatest commandments upon which that Law is hinged.

Very many philanthropists contribute large sums of money for various causes because they seek the recognition and praises and adulation of men. In many cases, their motives are evil -- "vainglorious" or "self-seeking". (And with philanthropists, their right hand always knows what the left is doing for tax write-off purposes.

If only you could understand that the central message of the bible is that God so loved the world -- love that motivated him to give all that he had -- His only begotten Son -- but instead you only want to see evil in the scriptures. Tell me, 'cap, if God were an unrighteous, unholy and profane being, as we humans are -- why wouldn't God behave as an unrighteous judge? Why would God need to satisfy the righteous demands of any Law? Why wouldn't he just emulate some president of the U.S. who, at the end of his term, gets to pardon whoever he wants, without really answering to anyone for the rationale behind those pardons? Likewise, why wouldn't God just pardon everyone and the end of this age, and then throw a big cocktail party afterward with all the Hitchens of the world sitting at His right hand? And if anyone dare ask him how he could pardon child molesters, mass murderers, child pornographers, all the Hitlers of the ages, etc., then God could simply answer, "It is what it is. If you don't like my brand of justice, you can always pack your bags and go to Hell!"

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Thaskalos agrees...and so would Socrates, were he still around.

Socrates never claimed to be anything but a mere man...and he was, in fact, quite amused at the thought that he might be the wisest man around.

Ahh...but Jesus did, didn't he?

He traveled as far as he could to discover what made him so much wiser than the rest of the men in Greece, and he came to the following conclusion...which he revealed shortly before he died.

But the omniscient Creator of the universe never had to travel to learn, did he? Jesus at 12, for example, was already astounding the rabbis, the scribes, the lawyers and other religious leaders in the temple with his knowledge.

"I have discovered that I don't know a great many things...but I am well AWARE of the fact that I don't know about them. Other wise men that I met ALSO don't know about those same things...but they don't KNOW that they don't know. They live under the misguided notion that they DO know.

Jesus always knew. There wasn't a thing that he didn't know, except to the extent that he chose to suspend a divine attribute, such as his omniscience (e.g. when he would return). See Phil 2:6-8 which teaches this doctrine of the Kenosis of Christ.

So -- since I know my own ignorance, whereas the other "wise" men know it not -- I have now come to believe that I am indeed the wisest man around."

Indeed, a wise man is one who knows his limitations. But I wonder what Socrates would have thought if he had lived at the time of Christ and had access to the holy scriptures. Ignorance is due to a lack of knowledge. Divine revelation, however, supplies that knowledge. Just as light dispels the darkness so, too, ignorance must give way to revelation.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

In my opinion, the Atheist is as misguided and stubborn as the religious fanatic...because he has made up his mind about something, without adequate proof for reaching such a conclusion.

The absence of proof that something exists does not definitely prove that it CANNOT possibly exist.

You would do well to remember this sentence when you interpret scripture and bring arguments or questions that are rooted in Arguments from Silence.

I cannot argue with the Agnostic though...

Why not? The philosophy of Agnosticism is as self-defeating as Atheism.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Well then...why don't you tell me about all the great humanitarian works performed by atheists. How they have gone throughout the whole world and have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, provided relief to the poor, ministered to the sick and have visited the imprisoned. Have I missed HAL all these years -- the Humanitarian Atheists League or something? Maybe HAL has accomplished more for his fellow man than all the Christians missions around the globe?

You don't really want to go there do you? For if you want to boast of all the great humanitarian works performed by the religious among us, then we must also discuss all of the horrifying atrocities commited by similarly religious folks in the NAME OF said religion...especially, but certainly not limited to, Christianity.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You would do well to remember this sentence when you interpret scripture and bring arguments or questions that are rooted in Arguments from Silence.


Boxcar

My "arguments from silence" deserve an answer, IMO...because they raise certain questions which curiously remain unanswered...both by scripture and by the Church.

For instance...you mention Jesus teaching the elders at the temple at the young age of 12.

Scripture abandons him there...and picks him up again two decades later...when he shows up at the Jordan river to be baptised by John the Baptist.

And I ask:

Where was he in the meantime?

How do we lose track of "God" for almost 20 years?

Could it be that the scriptures have a record of those "missing years"...but the church wants to keep it a secret?

Isn't this a legitimate question...or is it just another "argument from silence"?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

One of the problems we face is our tendency to anthropomorphize God.

Why would God create us indeed? "Was God bored? Did he need to populate heaven with souls of his own creation?"

The Creationists think this is the case. And then build an elaborate fantasy/theology based on human emotions of jealousy, love, wrath and anger

Somehow I can't believe the infinite expresses feeble human emotions as a temperamental 8 year old boy, along with childish tantrums and the overwhelming need to "get even"

Wow! I nearly overlooked this "gem" -- one that is so rough and crude that it's still in the form of a lump of coal.

When has any "creationist" ever expressed that we "think this is the case"? It is the skeptic who continually and habitually mischaracterizes God. You can't even concede that God might indeed have "so loved the world", or that God loved Jesus, or that God loves repentant sinners, or that God loves the godly -- because then you would unwittingly be admitting to theism! God forbid! May God condemn all heretical theists and give everyone else a free pass! In the beginning God created the primordial soup...and after that...look out! And before that, even, God took his big canon and fired a shot into the black Nothingness, and this is what we ended up with! Those are the two creeds that you're willing to stake your life upon, isn't it?

And I suppose if anyone were to commit a sin -- a mean a really serious, grievous immoral act (if there's such a thing) against someone you deeply loved (if you even believe in Love), your cry for justice would be what -- a mere spiteful need "to get even"? Would we then be able to lump you in with this vengeful, spiteful, hateful. petty, small-minded God? How would you differ, exactly, from the Being who has revealed himself in the scriptures, and that you so despise?

Boxcar
P.S. Anthropomorphisms are biblical figures of speech to aid our finite minds to better understand the Infinite. But idolatry, which can take the form of mentally erecting a god in our own carnal image, is forbidden throughout.