Religious

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Overlay

Genesis 3:15

Overlay is 100% on the mark. In order to begin to grasp the course of human history and whether or not there is any rhyme or reason to it, we need to study the various covenants God made with his people. Understanding those promises would open up the scriptures to everyone. The key to understanding the Present (New Covenant) economy is to understand the Past (various redemptive covenants God made in the OT). What our goal should be is to understand how we got to that place (or scriptures} that we call the New Testament. How did we arrive at the New Covenant from the Mosaic (Old) Covenant, for example? How did we get from God choosing a physical, visible, localized nation with which to enter into covenants to a spiritual, invisible, universal "holy nation" with whom Christ made a New Covenant in his blood and which is called the Church? To understand God's redemptive plan for mankind, therefore, we must trace his soteriological purposes through the pathway of eschatology, and eschatology is replete with prophecies about how, when and where and by whom his eternal purposes will be ultimately accomplished, which is by that promised "seed" in Gen 3:15.

In Gen 3:15, God actually made a covenant with Eve through the Serpent (Satan) after the Fall. God promised Eve, in broad terms (admittedly), he would put enmity between her and the Serpent and between her "seed" (singular, one particular person) and the Serpent's seed (spiritual offspring). And that one day this promised "seed" would bruise the Serpent's head (intimating a lethal wound) whereas the Serpent would inflict but a non-lethal wound by bruising the "seed" on his heel. What is actually being promise here, and what becomes clear as divine revelation unfolds, is that Satan would "bruise Christ's heel" at the Cross, since death would not be able to hold Christ in the grave. However, Christ would inflict a mortal wound on the head of the Serpent at his resurrection because it is Satan who has the power of death, and Christ conquered death. Death is the last enemy! And Jesus defeated that enemy on the Third Day!

While this seed promise appears to be obscure to us, looking back in the distant past, it wasn't to Eve. Eve when she was pregnant with Cain (her first child), she mistakenly thought that God was already making good on his promise to defeat the Enemy, which was Satan and Death. But of course, that wasn't to be the case.

But as one generation succeed another, and then judgment came via the Flood, and then even more time passed until we get to Abraham. It was with Abraham that this obscure, shadowy promise of the "seed" that was made to Eve began to take a more definite, concrete form, which we can see in Genesis 12, 15, 17, 22, etc.. What is absolutely crucial to understanding the Abrahamic Covenant is that there are two distinct strands of promises that run through this scarlet thread of redemptive promises. God promised that he would make a great nation from Abraham's loins -- a physical nation occupied with physical descendants and this nation would have very definite physical borders, and the descendants would possess a physical land and that physical blessing would be involved. But God also promised Abraham something very different from what I just described. God also promised to make Abraham a "father of many nations". Through this strand, the redemptive scope of God's redemptive in history just became exceedingly broad. He just expanded it from one nation of Hebrews to the nations of the world (i.e. Gentiles). It went from one physical nation to numerous ones that would consist of ONE "holy nation". It went from an exclusive covenant relationship of one people to the far more inclusive relationship of many nations.

Now, here's the kicker: The narrower strand of promise involving only Abraham's physical descendants was conditional in nature. What becomes even clearer, in the scheme of progressive revelation, is that God promised blessing for obedience and faithfulness to his covenant but curses for disobedience (cf. Deut 28). However, the more inclusive spiritual strand to the promise was unconditional! God clearly states to Abraham, I will make you a father of many nations. I will! God is going to do something on a monergistic basis!

So, then, if this case, how in the world did God intend to keep his promise to Abraham? Just how was God going to make Abraham the "father of many nations"? The answer to this important question is found in Gen 22:18 where once again, God makes the same "seed" promise that he made to Eve through the Serpent! The text reads:

Gen 22:18
18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
NASB

So, right here we have the two strands tied together, as it were -- because the physical nation of Israel is the intended means by which God would bring forth this promised "seed" (singular, a/k/a Messiah!). (See also Gal 3:16 wherein Paul stresses this point.) And this promised "seed" is the intended means by which God planned to bless all the nations (Gentiles). It would be through the Messiah and the preaching of the gospel by which the nations of the world be blessed and brought into a personal, redemptive covenant relationship with the Father. The promised "seed" in Gen 22:18 would be the means by which the nations would be included into God's eternal redemptive plans.

So, now we have seen the very broad, obscure promise narrowed down to a much more definitive one, since the one particular "promised seed" would obviously be a physical descendant of Abraham and, therefore, would come through the nation of Israel.. But then the promise becomes even better defined when we come to the Davidic Covenant (which I don't have time to get into in any detail.) But when we get to the covenant promise God made with David many centuries later, God promises king David that he would have an heir sit on his throne forever and ever. In other words, one of David's physical descendants would inherit the king's throne eternally! And who would this be? Jesus Christ. The Son of David, of course!

Talk about one continuous, consistent, harmonious Redemptive Thread in human history! In fact, one of my favorite verses in scripture is one that joins the gospel (good news) of the New Covenant with "promise to the fathers". It's no accident that both the Abrahamic and New Covenants are both called "everlasting" or "eternal" covenants. Obviously the latter covenant was always the intended means by which God would fulfill the former covenant.

Acts 13:32-34
32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm,' Thou art My Son; today I have begotten Thee.' 34 "And as for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no more to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'
NASB

Surely, one of the distinctives to orthodox Christianity is that God reveals himself in the scriptures as being a covenant-making God. God has always entered into covenants with his chosen people. Paul, in the above passage, is alluding to the Abrahamic Covenant which God reiterated to Isaac, then to Jacob and later to David (who is also considered a patriarch). Jesus, therefore, is the fulfillment of the covenant promise God made first with Eve, then to Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob and then to David.

This summary is very brief treatment of an exceedingly important biblical topic -- the Covenants of God. Volumes of books have been written regarding these covenants, their nature, their scope, their important place in human history and how, apart from these covenants, it's impossible to understand God's redemptive purposes and the course by which history has been traveling over these many millennia.

Boxcar

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Don't forget, TJ: The Jews first made worship of God a big business!

Forget? You should wish.

What TJ doesn't forget are religious bigots making inflammatory statements.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God promised Eve, in broad terms (admittedly), he would put enmity between her and the Serpent and between her "seed" (singular, one particular person) and the Serpent's seed (spiritual offspring).

In broad terms, you're full of it. The supposed conversation was between God and the serpent.



וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא
יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב.

And I will place hatred between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;

they will crush your head, and you will bite their heel.

זַרְעָהּ- seed, refers to Eve's descendant(s).

Take some Hebrew lessons. You might learn something.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Forget? You should wish.

What TJ doesn't forget are religious bigots making inflammatory statements.

Better bone up on your OT. I know you think the Jews might have been the "apple of God's eye" and the "cat's meow" or whatever -- but really they were basically an apostate nation of covenant-breakers. Did you ever read Deuteronomy 28, as I recommended a some time ago?

Now as far as my comment about the Jews trampling God's temple underfoot, as it were, this is the record in the NT:

Matt 21:13
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
KJV

Did you catch that? "It is written"! Written where, you ask? Where else but in the OT scriptures -- scriptures that Jesus knew better than the back of his hand!

Jer 7:8-11
8 "Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9 "Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say,' We are delivered!' — that you may do all these abominations? 11 "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," declares the LORD.
NASB

Was the prophet Jeremiah a "bigot", too? Were his statements "inflammatory"?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

In broad terms, you're full of it. The supposed conversation was between God and the serpent.



וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא
יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב.

And I will place hatred between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;

they will crush your head, and you will bite their heel.

זַרְעָהּ- seed, refers to Eve's descendant(s).

Take some Hebrew lessons. You might learn something.

First of all, you don't read too swell. I never said the conversation was between Eve and God! Go back and read my post!

And further more, not one single translation of any bible in my library renders the verse the way you have. And I have over twenty. Not one of them do!

Moreover, it doesn't even fit the context of Eve's expectation when she said, while pregnant with Cain,

Gen 4:1
4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, 'I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'
YLT

So, let's get this straight. Adam knocks his wife Eve up. She gets pregnant by him; but Eve doesn't give any credit to Adam. She gives the credit to "Jehovah" because of the promise God made to her (indirectly) when He addressed the Serpent. Eve understood exactly what God promised, which is what I pointed out earlier. Eve thought God would fulfill his promise of the coming "seed" through her pregnancy.

Boxcar

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by boxcar

but really they were basically an apostate nation of covenant-breakers.

Nice. You should be proud.

I'm confident that one day soon, I'll be able to attach a face and name to that statement.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Nice. You should be proud.

I'm confident that one day soon, I'll be able to attach a face and name to that statement.

Why would you even say that?

Boxcar gave his opinion that the Jews were covenant breakers and he referenced Deuteronomy 28.

That's his opinion. He's entitled to it.

The comments in bold made by you above implicitly border on threatening, unless I've misread your intent here.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Overlay

PA,

I sent you a separate e-mail on this.

Thank you. I was able to read what you sent me, although I'm not sure it exactly addressed what I was asking, but maybe that's my fault.

My real purpose in asking my question is to see what opinions people had as to exactly why God has done what he's done. I know trying to understand God's motivations is mostly futile, but as an intellectually curious creature, I can't help myself.

Was God bored? Did he need to populate heaven with souls of his own creation? Why did he create Earth? Why did he create our universe? What is the purpose of living on this Earth? Is it to acquire faith? Belief in what is stated in Scripture? Belief in the words of Jesus Christ? Is that the sole purpose? A test? A test of our faith?

If we pass, we go to heaven. If we fail, we go to hell?

What was there before the universe came into existence? What was there before God? What the heck is this place?

What is beyond the universe? The questions can seem limitless at times. The depth of our own ignorance is telling with questions like these.

And yet, some of us (like Boxcar), say they know. There is great comfort in knowing...having absolute truth to hang onto. I get that.

But yet, for people like me, these nagging questions remain. Why has all this been done? What is the purpose? Some of it, admittedly, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What is the purpose?

Exactly.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Why would you even say that?

Boxcar gave his opinion that the Jews were covenant breakers and he referenced Deuteronomy 28.

That's his opinion. He's entitled to it.

The comments in bold made by you above implicitly border on threatening, unless I've misread your intent here.

You do understand that Jews are still around and that these prejudicial comments have historically lead to discrimination, persecution and worse, right?

Hardly threatening. My intent is to share his opinions with a much larger audience. A benevolent publicist.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Thank you. I was able to read what you sent me, although I'm not sure it exactly addressed what I was asking, but maybe that's my fault.

My real purpose in asking my question is to see what opinions people had as to exactly why God has done what he's done. I know trying to understand God's motivations is mostly futile, but as an intellectually curious creature, I can't help myself.

Was God bored? Did he need to populate heaven with souls of his own creation? Why did he create Earth? Why did he create our universe? What is the purpose of living on this Earth? Is it to acquire faith? Belief in what is stated in Scripture? Belief in the words of Jesus Christ? Is that the sole purpose? A test? A test of our faith?

If we pass, we go to heaven. If we fail, we go to hell?

What was there before the universe came into existence? What was there before God? What the heck is this place?

What is beyond the universe? The questions can seem limitless at times. The depth of our own ignorance is telling with questions like these.

And yet, some of us (like Boxcar), say they know. There is great comfort in knowing...having absolute truth to hang onto. I get that.

But yet, for people like me, these nagging questions remain. Why has all this been done? What is the purpose? Some of it, admittedly, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

One of the problems we face is our tendency to anthropomorphize God.

Why would God create us indeed? "Was God bored? Did he need to populate heaven with souls of his own creation?"

The Creationists think this is the case. And then build an elaborate fantasy/theology based on human emotions of jealousy, love, wrath and anger

Somehow I can't believe the infinite expresses feeble human emotions as a temperamental 8 year old boy, along with childish tantrums and the overwhelming need to "get even"

[Overlay]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

But yet, for people like me, these nagging questions remain. Why has all this been done? What is the purpose? Some of it, admittedly, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

An imperfect analogy, perhaps, but why do parents have children? Parents are sufficient by themselves without them (just as God is without humanity), and those children (even under the best conditions) sometimes turn out to be disappointments (or worse), but people have them anyway. I think that, ideally, parents want for their children everything that God wanted for humanity: to share in His love, to learn from his example and guidance, and to progressively grow in their knowledge of the world and of Him.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Overlay

An imperfect analogy, perhaps, but why do parents have children? Parents are sufficient by themselves without them (just as God is without humanity), and those children (even under the best conditions) sometimes turn out to be disappointments (or worse), but people have them anyway. I think that, ideally, parents want for their children everything that God wanted for humanity: to share in His love, to learn from his example and guidance, and to progressively grow in their knowledge of the world and of Him.

And then he wipes out large portions of the population if they screw up?

Or sends them a book that requires 20 years of study for them to follow his rules of do and don't do? And if they don't get it wipes out large portions of the population?

Hey no problem. Just tells some of his surviving children to do a whole lot of begettin' to replenish the herd so he can experiment some more with raising the children correctly.

Please! You are anthropomorphizing. Trying to fit the concept of God into human conditions. Why would a loving father treat his children like cattle and to do genetic engineering of their souls by culling the herd?

[Overlay]

All the objections you raise (and have raised)(regarding the consequences of sin (which was man's doing), the reason for the severity of God's reaction, and the "complex" nature of the law (which Jesus said can be summarized in only two commandments)), have already been discussed elsewhere in this thead. I was primarily addressing the individual who posed the question.

Do you have children? Do you teach them that actions have consequences? Do you discipline them?

If God had not been merciful, all of humanity would have perished in the Flood (although anyone who wanted to could have entered the ark and been saved). Nor would God have become human to satisfy God's judgment against humanity's sin on our behalf.

I was not "anthropomorphizing" God. It was God who originally created man in His image, and it was also God who "anthropomorphized" Himself in the person of Jesus, so that we would know even more exactly what God was like. I am discussing attributes of His character that He has revealed to us, and that we would not know apart from that revelation.

[hcap]

Do you have children? Do you teach them that actions have consequences? Do you discipline them?

1 grown son

I did not murder him if he screwed up convoluted rules that I put into effect one moment and changed for another. I did not demand unconditional love even if I tortured him with tests to determine if he in fact loved me and demand he sacrifice his pet dog or cat to prove it. I would be a pretty stupid God if so.

You are creating God in your own human image.
The allegorical meaning of Abraham being asked to sacrifice Issac is for the internal struggle to overcome what the Buddhists call attachment.

Job is given a test to gauge his love for God. Job is the tester. Job is the testee. Once again it is an exercise to limit attachment to ones sensory illusions.