Grade 1 downgrades 2019

[ClockersCorner]

Downgrading the Zenyatta was a surprise to me with the high quality of the recent winners. The Santa Margarita drop didn't surprise me.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by ClockersCorner

Downgrading the Zenyatta was a surprise to me with the high quality of the recent winners. The Santa Margarita drop didn't surprise me.

Last 2 winners of questionable G1 quality;

last 3 winners well beaten in the subsequent BC Distaff;

last 5 renewals featured odds-on favorites (and 8 of the last 11 runnings)--i.e., non-competitive fields

Of the 5 winners of the past 11 runnings not named Beholder or Zenyatta, only Stellar Wind won another subsequent race (though I guess there's hope for Paradise Woods who worked for the first time in months this morning at Del Mar...)

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Last 2 winners of questionable G1 quality;

last 3 winners well beaten in the subsequent BC Distaff;

last 5 renewals featured odds-on favorites (and 8 of the last 11 runnings)--i.e., non-competitive fields

Of the 5 winners of the past 11 runnings not named Beholder or Zenyatta, only Stellar Wind won another subsequent race (though I guess there's hope for Paradise Woods who worked for the first time in months this morning at Del Mar...)

I still dont get some of the downgrades, versus upgrades, I mean the Jaipur has not produced better quality than the Zenyatta or the Stephen Foster.

I guess its just an effort to get more grade 1 races at shorter distances, and on turf.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

I still dont get some of the downgrades, versus upgrades, I mean the Jaipur has not produced better quality than the Zenyatta or the Stephen Foster.

I guess its just an effort to get more grade 1 races at shorter distances, and on turf.

The Stephen Foster has consistently drawn bad fields. Gun Runner and Curlin, both odds-on, faced weak fields. Gun Runner ran against no other dirt Grade 1 winners while Curlin faced Brass Hat who had won the Donn at Gulfstream.

Outside those 2 and Blame, the post Stephen Foster careers of the other winners have been absolutely atrocious. Only Ron The Greek, who upset the great Wise Dan (another odds-on favorite) in 2012, was able to produce a subsequent Grade 1, taking the 2013 Jockey Club Gold Cup after a string of defeats. His form was so bad he went off at 21-1 when winning his farewell race in North America.

Moonshine Mullin (a $40K claimer only a couple months before), Macho Again, Pool Play, Pavel, Noble Bird, and Bradester never won a Grade 1 before or after their respective Stephen Foster wins. Fort Larned post-BC career was horrendous save for his Stephen Foster win, where his form was so bad going in, he was only 4th choice in a field of 6.

Fort Larned later won the inaugural "Lukas" Classic, which has basically become a re-do of the Stephen Foster during the fall meet at Churchill. That race has been drawing a good chunk of the horses that run in the Foster earlier in the year, and it's only a Grade 3.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

The Stephen Foster has consistently drawn bad fields. Gun Runner and Curlin, both odds-on, faced weak fields. Gun Runner ran against no other dirt Grade 1 winners while Curlin faced Brass Hat who had won the Donn at Gulfstream.

Outside those 2 and Blame, the post Stephen Foster careers of the other winners have been absolutely atrocious. Only Ron The Greek, who upset the great Wise Dan (another odds-on favorite) in 2012, was able to produce a subsequent Grade 1, taking the 2013 Jockey Club Gold Cup after a string of defeats. His form was so bad he went off at 21-1 when winning his farewell race in North America.

Moonshine Mullin (a $40K claimer only a couple months before), Macho Again, Pool Play, Pavel, Noble Bird, and Bradester never won a Grade 1 before or after their respective Stephen Foster wins. Fort Larned post-BC career was horrendous save for his Stephen Foster win, where his form was so bad going in, he was only 4th choice in a field of 6.

Fort Larned later won the inaugural "Lukas" Classic, which has basically become a re-do of the Stephen Foster during the fall meet at Churchill. That race has been drawing a good chunk of the horses that run in the Foster earlier in the year, and it's only a Grade 3.

again, I would argue all the winners you just listed were more important horses than any of the winners of the Jaipur.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

again, I would argue all the winners you just listed were more important horses than any of the winners of the Jaipur.

The turf sprint "division" is an artificial subset of the North American racehorse population arbitrarily created by the Breeder's Cup. Beyond that, sprinters--especially the one's who are limited to turf racing--are inherently inferior to a classic-type Thoroughbred that can carry speed over a distance. In essence, turf sprinters--at least in the USA--are the very definition of "restricted".

So, yes, I agree. A Grade 1 turf sprint doesn't mean much more than a listed turf sprint...and probably not much more than a solid group of $40K claimers (where Stormy Liberal emerged from). It certainly isn't on par or even analogous to a Grade 1 route race.

As far as the Jaipur is concerned, the only reason beyond featuring subsequent BC winner Stormy Liberal (running unplaced) in the past 2 renewals that I can see for making it a Grade 1 is that a horse called "Upgrade" won it a few years ago...

[ClockersCorner]

Stellar Wind had several Grade 1 wins other than the Zenyatta and Vale Dori was certainly a solid Grade 1 runner - 9 times 1st or 2nd in Gr. 1 or 2 races other than the Zenyatta. Paradise Woods had another Gr 1 win, too. Not every Gr 1 race has to be won by Eclipse award winners.
Not losing sleep over this, just observing. I would like to see the top Filly and Mares ship from East coast to West and vice versa occasionally. Doesn't seem to happen much outside the Breeders Cup.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by ClockersCorner

I would like to see the top Filly and Mares ship from East coast to West and vice versa occasionally. Doesn't seem to happen much outside the Breeders Cup.

That's exactly because of races like the Zenyatta.

The Lady's Secret (as it was then called) was created in 1993 specifically to serve as a prep for the Breeder's Cup. This re-routed CA mares from races like the Spinster, Ruffian, and Beldame and gave them an excuse to stay home.

Same goes for the Awesome Again, though its a bit older than the Lady's Secret. It was a minor race up until the BC took a firm hold in 1987, when Ferdinand and Skywalker used it as a prep.

Before then, after the Hollywood Gold Cup, the top CA horses contested multiple races back east, like the Woodward, Marlboro Cup, and Jockey Club Gold Cup.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by ClockersCorner

Vale Dori was certainly a solid Grade 1 runner - 9 times 1st or 2nd in Gr. 1 or 2 races other than the Zenyatta.

Vale Dori's Grade 1 win in NA prior to the Zenyatta was a weak Santa Margarita--which coincidentally is being downgraded as well--where she beat a sprinter. Furthermore, she may actually be one of the reasons why the Zenyatta was downgraded, as despite her previous exploits, she could barely muster much more than listed stakes status in 2018 prior to beating a fried Abel Tasman.

Even when she was going good, well over a year ago, she was beating terrible fields, several of whom earned graded stakes placing despite being eligible for first or second condition allowance races (Show Stealer, Autumn Flower, Wild At Heart). In fact, the La Canada is also being downgraded next year...

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

That's exactly because of races like the Zenyatta.

The Lady's Secret (as it was then called) was created in 1993 specifically to serve as a prep for the Breeder's Cup. This re-routed CA mares from races like the Spinster, Ruffian, and Beldame and gave them an excuse to stay home.

Same goes for the Awesome Again, though its a bit older than the Lady's Secret. It was a minor race up until the BC took a firm hold in 1987, when Ferdinand and Skywalker used it as a prep.

Before then, after the Hollywood Gold Cup, the top CA horses contested multiple races back east, like the Woodward, Marlboro Cup, and Jockey Club Gold Cup.

It's not because of these races. It is because of the BC.

Because of the BC, the New York stakes that used to be championship races became mere preps. So they are of no value to California trainers- they can prep here or even come up on works alone.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

It's not because of these races. It is because of the BC.

Because of the BC, the New York stakes that used to be championship races became mere preps. So they are of no value to California trainers- they can prep here or even come up on works alone.

Sounds like six of one, half a dozen of the other. The Lady's Secret/Zenyatta wouldn't exist to be graded (G1 or otherwise) and the Goodwood would still be a Grade 3 $100-grander.

Of course the upstream factor is the Breeder's Cup. Not only does it discourage shipping, it also discourages running in multiple races to validate championship form--which in a vicious circle only serves to validate its status as the Eclipse-determining end-all.

[ClockersCorner]

If the argument is that there are too many grade 1 races nationally then I suppose I can support that.

[GMB@BP]

is there an older female grade 1 race beyond a mile in socal anymore?

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

is there an older female grade 1 race beyond a mile in socal anymore?

Clement Hirsch.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Clement Hirsch.

Zenyatta is a better race in my mind.