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09-02-2020, 07:04 PM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow
It's interesting how some trainers are just really good trainers, others are really good at conformation and recommending good buys. Those 2 things don't always line up.
I know who I would take with me if I were looking to purchase a horse, and it wouldn't be the same person who trains it.
Both are a gift, but different types of gifts.
Finding and recognizing good horse flesh, and training it, just seem like different talents.
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This is true, and just as surprising to me.
There was one trainer at Arlington that had a great eagle eye in the paddock. He could tell very minute things about a 3-5 favorite that would proceed to run up the track, or at least very short.
His barn however won at a paltry 5% and did not have very good stock. But he had a good eye.
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09-02-2020, 08:22 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,111
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Relationships.
You have to get along with the trainer, and trust him or her. We used 4 trainers. Talked with every trainer about all of our horses. Even if they did not have the horse of subject.
We were open about it. Costed us, in the end, two of those trainers would not work for us.
Game can get personal, when it does, you are probably screwed.
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09-03-2020, 11:27 AM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbwinner
Do you still own, bks? I somewhat remember talking to you too back near 10 years ago...
I only had two times where a horse was entered against our plans. One time was to make a race go, and we would scratch...OK, that's fine but at least let me know so I am not surprised by an entry notification. The other was sticking a horse back in 10 days after a tough beat, I wasn't very happy but trusted their judgement, after all, they saw him everyday. If I remember right, he ran OK.
The vet bills hurt. One of the five trainers I had used during the 3 years believed anything and everything should be treated. There were times where a 5k claimer had a $1,400 bill. One time I showed the bills to a respected, long-time horseman who won at a lifetime 15%, he said most of that stuff was bullsh!t and a little time and training changes could have cured most of it. That made me even more sick and was near the exit for my ownership. I should dig up one of the bills and post some of the stuff here.
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That was the only time I can remember being surprised by an entry. I felt like he profited from knowing she wouldn't run, but I can't prove it. He's had other issues with medication positives but still trains "successfully".
We didn't have the horses we co-owned with a trainer for long enough to do a comparison on vet bills, but I felt the way you did about them. The first trainers we used, who we liked (Arnaud and Leigh Delacour), trained at Fairhill and it was almost like you didn't dare speak up about the bills, since it was a kind of a horse mecca. You were lucky to have your horses there, was the feeling, and while the day rate was astronomical everything was first rate and the horses we had stabled there seemed to have a chance to be stakes contenders. One probably did - she ran 2nd in a MSW on the Turf first time back from an injury but she was reinjured and sadly had to be retired at 4.
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09-03-2020, 01:49 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,021
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here is a vet bill for one of my mares that was racing at Oaklawn. She received the following during a 20 day period, in which she raced once and won, my trainer said she was doing fantastic at the time. The bill was over $900...
Acepromqzine suspension 100ml
Banamine past
Tucoprim powder 2000gm
Lasix
BCA paste syringe
Bamamine paste
Clenbuterol 460ml
Multisol 1 liter x 6 admin
Banamine injection
Azium powder
Megasel 1 gal
Dormosedan
Banamine injection
Meticorten injection
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Stress Eze laste
Bute injection 10ml
Mucosil injection
Azium injection 20mg
Calcium thiamine injection
Mag sulfate
Lactanese injection
CMPK solution
BCA paste syringe 88m
Lasix
Endoscopic exam post race
Epic powder
Zantac 300mg
Sedivet
Banamine injection 10ml
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Meticorten injection
Great reminder to NOT own horses again.
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09-04-2020, 08:45 AM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,819
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OMG
that was in a 20 day period.. wow wow just wow I never realized it was this bad... to say I am stunned amazed flabbergasted. Did you win any money after all that plus day rate...?
all that benamine prompted me to look it up I read this....
https://horsesidevetguide.com/bute-banamine
Last edited by stuball; 09-04-2020 at 08:58 AM.
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09-04-2020, 11:48 AM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbwinner
here is a vet bill for one of my mares that was racing at Oaklawn. She received the following during a 20 day period, in which she raced once and won, my trainer said she was doing fantastic at the time. The bill was over $900...
Acepromqzine suspension 100ml
Banamine past
Tucoprim powder 2000gm
Lasix
BCA paste syringe
Bamamine paste
Clenbuterol 460ml
Multisol 1 liter x 6 admin
Banamine injection
Azium powder
Megasel 1 gal
Dormosedan
Banamine injection
Meticorten injection
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Stress Eze laste
Bute injection 10ml
Mucosil injection
Azium injection 20mg
Calcium thiamine injection
Mag sulfate
Lactanese injection
CMPK solution
BCA paste syringe 88m
Lasix
Endoscopic exam post race
Epic powder
Zantac 300mg
Sedivet
Banamine injection 10ml
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Meticorten injection
Great reminder to NOT own horses again.
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That is a great price for what is listed
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09-04-2020, 01:55 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm
That is a great price for what is listed
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Keep in mind this was over 8 years ago. I am sure it is higher now and even more on the coasts rather than OP.
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09-07-2020, 05:14 PM
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Benton, La.
Posts: 1,841
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looks like my list for 3 horses over a year
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09-07-2020, 08:40 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
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I owned via a syndicate/partnership for about 4-5 years.
Never expected to make $ and didn't. Best year $wise I made back about 50%.
That said, I enjoyed several wins at major tracks that were the thrill of a lifetime, whether it was a $20k claimer or a minor non-graded stakes. Nothing compares.
I likened it to spending an equivalent amount of $ on pro sports tickets...except you MIGHT get a few bucks back and the food is cheaper and it's triple the fun to win. And I got access, real handshaking hang out in the barns access to some of the best in the game. I'm not getting that with Brady/Belichick no matter what I spend on seats.
I was about 80% pleased with how the managing partner worked to place our horses in positions to be competitive. That was (and is) important to me.
So is communication. We always got timely and honest information about our horses.
The one thing i will add is I would never care for a fractional ownership where I could not (or need not) pull a license as an owner. That's just an extra level of skin for me that I value. Plus...for the $200 I'd pay I think once a year or maybe even every 2 years I got free parking and CH admissions at every SoCal track plus a program and access throughout the facility. In my opinion, that's a huge bennie and helped offset my "investment" losses.
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09-10-2020, 12:37 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 236
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Myself and a partner owned a couple of claimers back in the 90s.
Our deal was that we owned the horses, but the trainer split the purse money and the vet bills, with no day rate.
We won a few races and he seemed happy with the arrangement, and we got to have our pictures taken.
Does this happen anymore????
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09-10-2020, 06:36 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1,206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMustang
Myself and a partner owned a couple of claimers back in the 90s.
Our deal was that we owned the horses, but the trainer split the purse money and the vet bills, with no day rate.
We won a few races and he seemed happy with the arrangement, and we got to have our pictures taken.
Does this happen anymore????
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From the point of view of some trainers (a number of whom are now out of the training game) it happens all too much nowadays.
Arrangements like this have their pros and cons. One of the biggest negatives is one we saw during the shutdowns for COVID-19. There were no purses to run for, so no way for the trainer to get the purses to split.
Another negative is the incentivization to really push the envelope in going for wins/purses.
It seems that most of the pressure to take horses on deals like this falls on the smaller outfits, who already have enough to deal with in competing with the larger barns, who have a lot more sway over the condition book to get the races their horses can perform best in.
__________________
Tom in NW Arkansas
Past performances are no guarantee of future results. - Why isn't this disclaimer printed in the Daily Racing Form?
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09-10-2020, 07:29 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuball
that was in a 20 day period.. wow wow just wow I never realized it was this bad...
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For the owners ..... or for the horses?
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09-10-2020, 08:27 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbwinner
here is a vet bill for one of my mares that was racing at Oaklawn. She received the following during a 20 day period, in which she raced once and won, my trainer said she was doing fantastic at the time. The bill was over $900...
Acepromqzine suspension 100ml
Banamine past
Tucoprim powder 2000gm
Lasix
BCA paste syringe
Bamamine paste
Clenbuterol 460ml
Multisol 1 liter x 6 admin
Banamine injection
Azium powder
Megasel 1 gal
Dormosedan
Banamine injection
Meticorten injection
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Stress Eze laste
Bute injection 10ml
Mucosil injection
Azium injection 20mg
Calcium thiamine injection
Mag sulfate
Lactanese injection
CMPK solution
BCA paste syringe 88m
Lasix
Endoscopic exam post race
Epic powder
Zantac 300mg
Sedivet
Banamine injection 10ml
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Meticorten injection
Great reminder to NOT own horses again.
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Holy sheet!!!!
Is that all for ONE horse?
Even if it isn't, I'd be in that trainer's grille telling him that it's looking like he's getting a kick back from the Vet who in turn is getting a kickback from the Vet Pharma Rep.
That bill is a whole parade ground full of red flags.
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09-12-2020, 01:36 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Benton, La.
Posts: 1,841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMustang
Myself and a partner owned a couple of claimers back in the 90s.
Our deal was that we owned the horses, but the trainer split the purse money and the vet bills, with no day rate.
We won a few races and he seemed happy with the arrangement, and we got to have our pictures taken.
Does this happen anymore????
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That's a good deal and hard to find these days unless you have a good horse
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09-13-2020, 01:36 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbwinner
here is a vet bill for one of my mares that was racing at Oaklawn. She received the following during a 20 day period, in which she raced once and won, my trainer said she was doing fantastic at the time. The bill was over $900...
Acepromqzine suspension 100ml
Banamine past
Tucoprim powder 2000gm
Lasix
BCA paste syringe
Bamamine paste
Clenbuterol 460ml
Multisol 1 liter x 6 admin
Banamine injection
Azium powder
Megasel 1 gal
Dormosedan
Banamine injection
Meticorten injection
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Stress Eze laste
Bute injection 10ml
Mucosil injection
Azium injection 20mg
Calcium thiamine injection
Mag sulfate
Lactanese injection
CMPK solution
BCA paste syringe 88m
Lasix
Endoscopic exam post race
Epic powder
Zantac 300mg
Sedivet
Banamine injection 10ml
Vita iron injection
Adequan 500mg intramuscular
Meticorten injection
Great reminder to NOT own horses again.
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This is not unusual for the modern trainer. When you hear a trainer say "our program" it usually involves this kind of vet assistance. I was going to send a horse to Florida to a well respected trainer, and he told me it was $100 a day and to expect a 1,500 -2,000 a month vet bill. This was for a non raced 3 yo mdn filly..It has gotten way out of hand..
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