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Old 03-05-2018, 06:42 PM   #5701
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The persecution of the Christian church, never happened.
Did it happen?

Admittedly they were blamed for the great fire of 64 C.E. However, they did preach a doctrine in which the evil people of the world would burn in hell. Think about it. They had been told that some among them would not see death. It had been 30 years and nothing had happened. It's conceivable that some radical Christians, or group of Christians, actually did set the fire in an attempt to bring this about, ergo, they were a logical scapegoat.

The great fire and the scapegoating of Christians aside, is there any secular record of the Christians being persecuted by Rome to a greater extent than other groups?
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:20 PM   #5702
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It's those "derivative claims" which make the question of his existence of any interest. Take away all the supernatural claims and the question becomes "who cares?"

If your claim is merely that there was a self-employed preacher in business circa 30 C.E., that said preacher had disputes with Pharisees, that he gave a sermon on a mountain, espoused a philosophy, then OK. There were probably a lot of them. One of them may have been named Yeshua ben Joseph, no big deal. It's the supernatural claims that make anyone give a damn.

If you claim that Socrates never existed, who really cares? The Socratic Philosophy certainly exists but the question of whether it originated with Socrates, Plato, Aristotle or even Ptolemy is academic. Who cares?

But if you claim that Socrates performed miracles, walked on water, and rose from the dead, then the very question of his existence becomes a big deal.
But those "derivative claims" do not, in and of themselves, prove that he existed or didn't exist, with the exception of his birth and death, both of which are recorded in scripture and elsewhere. All that is claimed to have happened in between the womb and the tomb is another issue entirely.

And "who cares" are scholars who are believers and unbelievers alike. Many unbelievers (like Ehrman) and even religious believers of all stripes admire Jesus because of his ethical teachings. Just like most Jews in Jesus' day "admired" Jesus because they thought he was a great rabbi or prophet, but they had no understanding of who He really was, what his mission in Palestine or the world really was. Time and again in the NT we read how the crowds who heard Jesus "marveled" at His teachings, and so it still is to this day. People marvel at his teaching, yet totally miss who he was and what his mission in this world was.
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:22 PM   #5703
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Did it happen?

Admittedly they were blamed for the great fire of 64 C.E. However, they did preach a doctrine in which the evil people of the world would burn in hell. Think about it. They had been told that some among them would not see death. It had been 30 years and nothing had happened. It's conceivable that some radical Christians, or group of Christians, actually did set the fire in an attempt to bring this about, ergo, they were a logical scapegoat.

The great fire and the scapegoating of Christians aside, is there any secular record of the Christians being persecuted by Rome to a greater extent than other groups?
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:24 PM   #5704
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What was Witherington's dating method? Were they dating the stone or the patina?
Join Erhman's blog. Maybe he'll tell you. He would have a lot more common with you than he would with me.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:59 PM   #5705
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I will make another claim, that Gone With the Wind is entirely fiction. Then you say "Perhaps you can explain when Atlanta came into existence. When was the Battle of Gettysburg fought? Or is that also fiction? Is General Sherman also fictional? Are the carpetbaggers and scalawags who plundered the south after the war merely myth? And of course slavery never happened in America. In fact the entire Civil War is a myth."

That's precisely the argument you are putting up to defend the NT as historical. By that argument Gone With the Wind is also a true story.

Margaret Mitchell included Atlanta, Gettysburg, Sherman, carpetbaggers, slaves and the Civil War in her story because it establishes a milieu for the story. The existence of the milieu does not make the story authentic. The writers of the NT included Jerusalem, Pilate, etc. for the same reason. The difference is that Mitchell never presented her novel as a true story, whereas the NT is a hoax.
You're the one who insisted that ALL the NT is fiction. But now...you want to walk that back?

Prove that the NT is a hoax. He who makes the claim bears the burden of proof.

In fact...if Jesus is hoax, then why don't we have ancient records of people who wrote about the hoax or myth or whatever you want to call it? It would have been very easy for learned, religious, first century Jews to pen rebuttals to the religious radicals' claims and that temptation would have been impossible to resist. Here's why: The "radical Jesus sect" claimed that he was the Messiah. And virtually all Jews of Jesus' day basically understood that the Messiah would come from the royal line of King David and would assume David's throne. In other words, the Messiah would be a king!

On top of this, the we can add the political climate of Jesus' day which would have further excited the notion of a mighty, conquering king who God would send to deliver the nation of Israel from its enemies. Up to this point everything is good thus far.

But then...the totally unexpected happened (kinda like Trump winning the election) that upset everyone's apple cart. Jesus gets himself crucified! And the huge downside to death by crucifixion is that in the Roman world (and even before that!) crucifixion was not only administered so that convicted people would die a very slow, excruciatingly painful death but to also cast as much public disgrace, shame and humiliation upon the victim as possible. And on top of this in the Jewish world death by crucifixion would have been viewed as God's curse upon Jesus. It seems to me, therefore, that the Jewish religious establishment would have had a very serious vested interest in quickly setting the record straight and exposing the "Jesus sect" for the religious charlatans they were. The establishment would have gone on public record by vehemently disavowing and exposing the lies propagated by the "Jesus sect", and all the establishment would have had to have done is appeal to their favorite Hebrew scriptures and other religious traditions to show that the real Messiah, as portrayed in those scriptures and extra-biblical writings, could not have possibly been Jesus, since the real Messiah would have been the heir to the Davidic throne and God's chosen king -- and NOT a criminal God would curse! (In fact, conservative Jewish sects to this day believe this about their Messiah who they believe is coming to save their nation as a conquering king!)

And then when we toss in the "hoax" of the resurrection on top of this shameful death of Jesus, how could any self-respecting establishment Jew
not write volumes in refuting this "Jesus sect" movement?

So...not only did the religious establishment of Jesus' day utterly fail to produce Jesus' body which would have killed the movement dead in its tracks, but they also failed to publicly and vocally inform all the Jews in Palestine that it wasn't possible, according to well accepted Jewish tradition, that Jesus could possibly be the Christ of God, i.e. the "anointed" one -- the Messiah. Where is any ancient Jewish record refuting the validity of the "Jesus sect" movement? Where?

It would have been very, very much in the religious establishment's best interest to nip this radical, Jesus movement in the bud, and they could have easily done this by exploiting Jesus' death or alleged resurrection. But NO! The great "spiritual" legacy of these first century religious establishment Jews was to kick the can down the road and let all future generations of Jews deal with the stigma of them and their forefathers being known for being the Christ Killers!

But it's even worse than this. By the first century religious establishment not dealing swiftly and decisively with the "Jesus sect", and publicly exposing them for the frauds they were, actually put the entire nation at risk with Rome! And the proof of this is in the history of the Jewish Wars and what ultimately happened in 70 A.D. When Jesus departed the scene in Palestine, the religious establishment was unable to fill the religious-spiritual vacuum He left, and so all kinds of fake messiahs came on the scene, stirred up the people by talking revolution, stirred up their hatred for Rome, etc. -- until things came to a head by 70 A.D.. In short, the religious establishment also failed to take Jesus at his word as to what would happen to the generation that he was about leave behind!

So...one is led to wonder why the Jewish religious establishment didn't take the kind of common sense action suggested above. I can only think of one reason: Both Jesus' death and resurrection are historical facts! The establishment could not buck the truth. There was no fighting the truth and the energy and motivation and boldness and courage of the Messiah's disciples -- at least not in a rational, reasoned, non-violent manner. Instead, what we find in the Book of Acts and in other places in the NT is that the Jewish establishment answered the threat to their authority and rule over the people by persecuting their fellow Jews who believed in the Messiah. And eventually, it got so bad the Jewish religious establishment persecuted even Gentile believers in the Messiah.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:42 AM   #5706
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You're the one who insisted that ALL the NT is fiction. But now...you want to walk that back?
I'll say this again. The existence of the milieu does not make the story authentic.. What part of that do you not get?

If you continue on this line then I'm forced to conclude that you believe that Gone With the Wind is a true story. And we're done.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:43 AM   #5707
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So you have no counter argument!
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:16 AM   #5708
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But those "derivative claims" do not, in and of themselves, prove that he existed or didn't exist, ...
True. Go on.

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... with the exception of his birth and death, both of which are recorded in scripture and elsewhere.
His birth? Wow! I don't recall ever hearing a "claim" the Jesus's "birth" is recorded "elsewhere". I take it that by his "birth" you include the claim of a virgin mother? And that by "elsewhere" you mean a secular record? Or are you saying that there is another possibility outside scripture and secular?

As for the claim that his death is recorded "elsewhere" I've addressed that one before.

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All that is claimed to have happened in between the womb and the tomb is another issue entirely.
Wait a minute. One of those "other issues entirely" if the claim that Jesus rose from the dead. That's a pretty big claim.

1 Corinthians 15:13..14 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

That's your claim. And it's a doozy. You make this claim with absolutely no proof while simultaneously admitting that if it's not true "then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."

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Many unbelievers (like Ehrman) and even religious believers of all stripes admire Jesus because of his ethical teachings.
Which are not unique to Jesus nor are they original with Jesus. See the works of Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster, et al.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:28 AM   #5709
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Join Erhman's blog. Maybe he'll tell you. He would have a lot more common with you than he would with me.
You brought it up. I have no horse in that race. All the Ossuary proves is that at some time around 2000 years ago + or - 100 years a guy named James died, his father was named Joseph and he had a brother named Jesus, all three common names. We're done.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:37 AM   #5710
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But then...the totally unexpected happened (kinda like Trump winning the election) that upset everyone's apple cart. Jesus gets himself crucified!
So I guess the Turnip is the 2nd coming?

More likely both stories are fake news.

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Old 03-06-2018, 02:17 AM   #5711
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A wise man once said, When someone doesn't believe in God, he can believe in anything..
Whoever said that was an idiot.

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You fill that God vacuum ...
Apt metaphor. An empty space. Nothing there.

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... with anything that pops into your mind.
Not just anything. Specifically physics.. And it did not "pop into my mind". I went to college for 8 years at great expense, spent long hours studying, and earned three degrees.

But (to use your own words) you "do not want to understand." You say that "naturalistic atheism is self defeating." What you mean by this (probably not understanding your own motives) is that you cannot accept it. You cannot accept the concept of your own death. Argumentum ad consequentiam! So you grasp at straws, and, thanks to the accident of you having been born in a part of the world where Christianity is the dominant straw, you grasp at Christianity. Had you been born in India you would be a Hindu, in Indonesia you would be a Muslim, in Tibet you would be a Buddhist.

But you were born in America. You are a Christian. And Christians don't have to think.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:13 AM   #5712
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True. Go on.

His birth? Wow! I don't recall ever hearing a "claim" the Jesus's "birth" is recorded "elsewhere". I take it that by his "birth" you include the claim of a virgin mother? And that by "elsewhere" you mean a secular record? Or are you saying that there is another possibility outside scripture and secular?

As for the claim that his death is recorded "elsewhere" I've addressed that one before.

Wait a minute. One of those "other issues entirely" if the claim that Jesus rose from the dead. That's a pretty big claim.

1 Corinthians 15:13..14 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

That's your claim. And it's a doozy. You make this claim with absolutely no proof while simultaneously admitting that if it's not true "then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."

Which are not unique to Jesus nor are they original with Jesus. See the works of Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster, et al.
The writers of scripture claim a lot of things, including his birth and death.

For the last time, try to get this to stick in your brain: You claim Jesus never existed. What Jesus did or didn't do doesn't prove or disprove his existence. Only his birth or death are relevant events to his existence.

But then you raised a dumb objection regarding "derivative claims" saying that if we don't consider those claims (in addition to the question of his existence), then "who cares"? I answered it. Many people (even unbelievers like Ehrman) are interested in Jesus because they think he was a great teacher. They place him in the class of a Buddha, Zoroaster, etc. I also pointed out that very many of Jesus' contemporaries in Palestine thought the same way about him -- they simply thought he was only a great teacher/prophet and nothing more. Ehrman, for example, doesn't believe Jesus performed miracles. He doesn't believe Jesus is the divine Son of God, doesn't believe Jesus is the Savior of the world, etc., etc. And the world is filled with Ehrmans who believe along very similar lines -- yet at the same time acknowledge and believe for good reasons that Jesus existed.

Finally, I didn't pen 1Cor 15:13-14. Paul did. So I make no claim on my own that Jesus rose from the dead. The doctrine of the resurrection of Jesus Christ did not originate with me; therefore, it is not MY claim, per se. I only believe what the entire body of scripture teaches about Christ's bodily resurrection.

So...have you resumed your search for first century literature that disputes Jesus' existence?
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:30 AM   #5713
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Whoever said that was an idiot.
No, he wasn't. He was thinking about people like you.

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Not just anything. Specifically physics.. And it did not "pop into my mind". I went to college for 8 years at great expense, spent long hours studying, and earned three degrees.
So, physics has all the answers to life?

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But (to use your own words) you "do not want to understand." You say that "naturalistic atheism is self defeating." What you mean by this (probably not understanding your own motives) is that you cannot accept it. You cannot accept the concept of your own death. Argumentum ad consequentiam! So you grasp at straws, and, thanks to the accident of you having been born in a part of the world where Christianity is the dominant straw, you grasp at Christianity. Had you been born in India you would be a Hindu, in Indonesia you would be a Muslim, in Tibet you would be a Buddhist.
Naturalistic atheism is self-defeating because it violates the Law of Noncontradiction. (You are working on finishing up your series, right? Don't keep us in suspense. I, for one, am chompin' at the bit to learn how I "abused" the laws of logic. )

And the country of my birth has ULTIMATELY nothing to do with my Christian beliefs. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is being preached all over the world, and since I was predestined (as are all born again believers) to believe the Gospel before the foundation of the world, God (through his providence) would have made certain that I heard the Gospel and responded to it accordingly no matter where I was born.

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But you were born in America. You are a Christian. And Christians don't have to think.
The last part is actually true. When conversing with brick walls such as yourself, I can actually go into auto snooze mode. When "fighting' with you, I can tie both hands behind my back just to try to make it fairer.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:51 AM   #5714
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I'll say this again. The existence of the milieu does not make the story authentic.. What part of that do you not get?

If you continue on this line then I'm forced to conclude that you believe that Gone With the Wind is a true story. And we're done.
Whoa, Charlie Brown! Give your brain a fighting chance to catch up to your motor mouth.

The "existence of the milieu" in the NT is entirely different from the milieu in "Gone with the Wind". The latter we know is fiction, but the former never claims to be fiction. You're merely assuming it is. But the NT itself claims to be absolute truth! So...if you allow that certain persons, for example, existed in Jesus' day, such as Pontius Pilate, Herod, the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the lawyers, temple priests, a high priest, Jewish tax gatherers, Samaritans, etc. then you have left far more than a "divine foot" in the door to ask, "Who else were real persons in the NT?" Who else in the Gospels were actually an integral part of the physical and social setting of the day? You have also left the door wide ajar to ask, "Did the events recorded in the Gospels actually occur in that social setting of the day?"

Now...YOU CLAIM...no one was and none of the events occurred. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to prove it. You have summarily dismissed the ENTIRE NT as religious fiction. So, prove it. Just because you say the NT is fiction, doesn't make it so.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:52 PM   #5715
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So I guess the Turnip is the 2nd coming?

More likely both stories are fake news.
I believe Trump is currently serving his first term. Stay tuned for the second one -- if you can count that high, that is.
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