Anyone picking up on racing trends at Saratoga so far ?

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

reupping this, given this horrible Saratoga weekend that never seems to want to end

it's time for Tapeta at the Spa, and I've been saying this for a long, long time - it is safer for the horses, especially 2 year olds, and many horses have long careers running on AW surfaces - also off the turf races are much better than scratching into small field sloppy track cards

after today's off the turf debacle, its just one more reason

Tough weekend for sure and much has been written about Maple Leaf Mel and (less so) Ever Summer. Unfortunately, the severe pop-up storms last week that drenched the turf courses as fields headed to the track caused some serious tearing in both courses at the 18-foot rail position and the path immediately to its outside. Further, the popularity of the 5 1/2 furlong turf sprints among horsemen (and gamblers) should not be forgotten. These races take a serious toll on the Mellon Course.

So, what's coming for this next week? For Day 20, the rails come down and you can expect that there will be fresh turf on the hedge and in the path (or two) immediately before the 18-foot path. Forward horses and inside trips will have an advantage for the next section of the meeting.

None of this has a thing to do with a synthetic surface. There is a parallel thread on this board discussing equine deaths per 1000 starters and the assertions of increased safety and the underpinning reasons are completely opaque based on the data.

As for today's "off-the-turf debacle", perhaps you are just thinking about the Saratoga experience during the last five years. Those who have been with the game longer and are familiar with the region know that the recent weather is more in keeping with the real Saratoga. Last two years in particular, we were just lucky to have the crazy weather outbreaks on Mondays and Tuesdays (almost without fail). As for using the term "debacle", your logic would have everything moved to synthetic surfaces to avoid any debacles. Using specific point cases to generate universal actions is faulty logic.

[Sheffwed]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Tough weekend for sure and much has been written about Maple Leaf Mel and (less so) Ever Summer. Unfortunately, the severe pop-up storms last week that drenched the turf courses as fields headed to the track caused some serious tearing in both courses at the 18-foot rail position and the path immediately to its outside. Further, the popularity of the 5 1/2 furlong turf sprints among horsemen (and gamblers) should not be forgotten. These races take a serious toll on the Mellon Course.

So, what's coming for this next week? For Day 20, the rails come down and you can expect that there will be fresh turf on the hedge and in the path (or two) immediately before the 18-foot path. Forward horses and inside trips will have an advantage for the next section of the meeting.

None of this has a thing to do with a synthetic surface. There is a parallel thread on this board discussing equine deaths per 1000 starters and the assertions of increased safety and the underpinning reasons are completely opaque based on the data.

As for today's "off-the-turf debacle", perhaps you are just thinking about the Saratoga experience during the last five years. Those who have been with the game longer and are familiar with the region know that the recent weather is more in keeping with the real Saratoga. Last two years in particular, we were just lucky to have the crazy weather outbreaks on Mondays and Tuesdays (almost without fail). As for using the term "debacle", your logic would have everything moved to synthetic surfaces to avoid any debacles. Using specific point cases to generate universal actions is faulty logic.

You don't think this weekend was a debacle?

Okay

Answer me this - why does Colonial have a world class turf course including drainage that allow their courses to stay safe, consistent and raceworthy, while the Spa's turf course seemed chunky on Thursday when I was there, let alone this weekend?

And not giving gamblers time to adjust their wagers yesterday wasn't a debacle on top of what happened to the horses in front of everyone?

This weekend was the worst in Saratoga history = debacle

No?

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

You don't think this weekend was a debacle?

Okay

Again, repeating what I said previously, the two on-track fatalities this weekend were gut-wrenching and on full view for those at the track and watching via television.

Second, if NYRA had the decision from mid-week as a do-over, the business decision might well have been to NOT run those two turf races over the water soaked courses. Many would say that the stakes races should be held on the turf regardless of conditions, others would counter that. Did it lead to the screwed up surface at 18-27 feet? Very likely along with the overall course use. Could the rails have been moved out to 36 feet and field sizes fixed at 6-7 horses? Very likely. Is this something that might be considered in the future? Perhaps.

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

Answer me this - why does Colonial have a world class turf course including drainage that allow their courses to stay safe, consistent and raceworthy, while the Spa's turf course seemed chunky on Thursday when I was there, let alone this weekend?

Realizing that Colonial seems to be your domestic model for the industry in almost every conversation, let's take this in pieces.

First, Colonial operates (2023) from July 13th to September 9th, three days per week. That makes for 27 days of racing with nine races per day which makes for 243 races. This is approximately 60% of the total race count at Saratoga. This is not a circuit with year-round horsemen opportunities addressed, but it is a summer boutique meet which has found a niche following years of closure post-2014.

Second, stables opened on June 19th and close shortly after the meet's closing. The dirt course is the only training available until the start of the meeting.

Third, after the meeting, the turf course is left to its own devices. The grass is left to turn to hay. In March of the racing year, the turf course is burned - yes, burned. A new layer of top soil is applied and the wait begins for new shoots to grow in time for the July meeting. Again, no training - but more importantly, no guarantee of the surface condition at the start of the new season.

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

And not giving gamblers time to adjust their wagers yesterday wasn't a debacle on top of what happened to the horses in front of everyone?

Races on horizontal wagers were declared "ALL" events in accordance with the wager rules.

Originally Posted by Sheffwed

This weekend was the worst in Saratoga history = debacle

No?

Histrionics aside, no.

[rastajenk]

Allumeuse!!

[Cholly]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

Allumeuse!!

Didn’t know they talk Cajun in Lebanon, Ohio…

Apropos of nothing:
-- In the 8th on Wednesday NYRA has carded a first level allowance as an optional claimer, which is unusual. They do it all the time in 2nd-level allowance races, and occasionally with 1st level state-breds, but almost never with 1st level open company. Indicative that the horse shortage affects even Saratoga, as you can see the race wouldn’t have filled without opening it up to claiming horses.

-- Starting with this Saratoga meet, NYRA is purporting a purse level on open company allowance races that includes a large bonus for a state-bred horse if they win. In the aforementioned 8th, what is really a $115,000 race is billed as having a $150,000 purse. Gulfstream has always done this, but it’s new for NYRA.

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Tough weekend for sure and much has been written about Maple Leaf Mel and (less so) Ever Summer. Unfortunately, the severe pop-up storms last week that drenched the turf courses as fields headed to the track caused some serious tearing in both courses at the 18-foot rail position and the path immediately to its outside. Further, the popularity of the 5 1/2 furlong turf sprints among horsemen (and gamblers) should not be forgotten. These races take a serious toll on the Mellon Course.

So, what's coming for this next week? For Day 20, the rails come down and you can expect that there will be fresh turf on the hedge and in the path (or two) immediately before the 18-foot path. Forward horses and inside trips will have an advantage for the next section of the meeting.

None of this has a thing to do with a synthetic surface. There is a parallel thread on this board discussing equine deaths per 1000 starters and the assertions of increased safety and the underpinning reasons are completely opaque based on the data.

As for today's "off-the-turf debacle", perhaps you are just thinking about the Saratoga experience during the last five years. Those who have been with the game longer and are familiar with the region know that the recent weather is more in keeping with the real Saratoga. Last two years in particular, we were just lucky to have the crazy weather outbreaks on Mondays and Tuesdays (almost without fail). As for using the term "debacle", your logic would have everything moved to synthetic surfaces to avoid any debacles. Using specific point cases to generate universal actions is faulty logic.

They are expecting rain Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday. Good luck with the turf races.

[PaceAdvantage]

It rains quite a bit up there every year...thunderstorms rolling through is nothing new under the sun...

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It rains quite a bit up there every year...thunderstorms rolling through is nothing new under the sun...

Then wouldn't it make sense to put in an all weather track? That's why Gulfstream did it. I think they have had an off track fot the last 4 or 5 cards, Just think how brutal the fields would have been if they only had dirt and turf?

[cj]

Originally Posted by azeri98

Then wouldn't it make sense to put in an all weather track? That's why Gulfstream did it. I think they have had an off track fot the last 4 or 5 cards, Just think how brutal the fields would have been if they only had dirt and turf?

And how has that worked out for Gulfstream.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It rains quite a bit up there every year...thunderstorms rolling through is nothing new under the sun...

It's going to be sunny up in Saratoga the next few days. Now that's climate change we like.

[Moreno]

Inside horses in turf sprints have relatively poor record in the past but not so much so far.
I hit three times playing outside horses with early speed this meet, at nice prices.

[affirmedny]

Originally Posted by cj

And how has that worked out for Gulfstream.

or Golden Gate, Arlington, & Hollywood Park?

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by cj

And how has that worked out for Gulfstream.

Well I think it has worked out well considering they can't maintain a turf course. Considering they were losing a lot of handle with turf races moving to the main track especially in the summer it was a good move. They lost handle because they haven't had a turf course the last 2 summers but imagine what the cards would be like if it was only dirt. The tapeta races have bigger fields than the dirt races do on every card. If they didn't have Tapeta the handle would be even worse. For Woodbine it was a great move. They hardly lose any horses when they go off Turf to Synthetic and their handle has never been higher

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by Publius

It's going to be sunny up in Saratoga the next few days. Now that's climate change we like.

They already cancelled the turf races for tomorrow. They are calling for rain Thursday and Saturday. That's the weather forecast I've seen

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by affirmedny

or Golden Gate, Arlington, & Hollywood Park?

Those were all sold for land development, not because they had a synthetic track. What about Hialeah, Suffolk Downs, Calder, Beulah, Portland Meadows and Sportsmans Park. Now maybe Turf Paradise. Did they close because they had synthetic tracks?