Religious

[Inner Dirt]

Atheist since about the age of 8 and I had some highly religious relatives growing up I spent quite a bit of time with. My grandma on my father's side was the worst in trying to correct my "wrong" thinking. She lived till I was 42 dying at 99 just 45 days short of 100. I don't think she gave up trying to fix me till I was in my mid 30's. I seriously put the idea of God as feasible as Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, I started doubting his existence by the age of 5-6.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Maybe your logic. No ones else's

...This entire thread is about whether god created time or time created god or some combination of both concepts that are too difficult to state. I will not permit you to evade a discussion of the so-called "flow of time" by interjecting a questionable a priori assumption. You are not allowed guessing about the origin of time in this argument about before and after. The Big Bang is not needed to define the LOGICAL terms of how we ALL define the passage of time. Neither is god

Before is before after. You can not change words we all use in order to satisfy and speculate your unfounded whims

The "entire thread" or the immediate discussion?

Since we're discussing Time, then to inject God into the discussion is fair game since scripture says He created it. And He not only created it but he has ordained the end from the very beginning. He has decreed all things that have not yet taken place but will come to past. This includes your very existence, mine and everyone else's. We all owe our existence ultimately to God's sovereign eternal decree -- but immediately to our parents. And our parents, in turn, owe their existence ultimately to their Creator, as well.

Time certainly does move or flow or stream -- whatever you wish to label it. Why? Because the entire universe is in motion! The entire universe is filled with energy and this is what drives Time. All men have known from the beginning -- probably instinctively -- that Time moves. Time does not stand still. Time moves along with Matter, Energy and Motion which drive it. So, the only question that remains is to determine the direction in which Time moves or flows or streams. Logically, Time can only move one way -- From the Future Through the Present To the Past. It moves from the mysterious Unknown to the Known. And while most of love to think that man controls his own destiny (i.e. his future) that theory is more than a myth -- it is a lie. We no more control the Future than we controlled our own existence at the moment we arrived out of the Future into the Present.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The "entire thread" or the immediate discussion?

Since we're discussing Time, then to inject God into the discussion is fair game since scripture says He created it. And He not only created it but he has ordained the end from the very beginning. He has decreed all things that have not yet taken place but will come to past. This includes your very existence, mine and everyone else's. We all owe our existence ultimately to God's sovereign eternal decree -- but immediately to our parents. And our parents, in turn, owe their existence ultimately to their Creator, as well.

Time certainly does move or flow or stream -- whatever you wish to label it. Why? Because the entire universe is in motion! The entire universe is filled with energy and this is what drives Time. All men have known from the beginning -- probably instinctively -- that Time moves. Time does not stand still. Time moves along with Matter, Energy and Motion which drive it. So, the only question that remains is to determine the direction in which Time moves or flows or streams. Logically, Time can only move one way -- From the Future Through the Present To the Past. It moves from the mysterious Unknown to the Known. And while most of love to think that man controls his own destiny (i.e. his future) that theory is more than a myth -- it is a lie. We no more control the Future than we controlled our own existence at the moment we arrived out of the Future into the Present.

Your apparent psychosis is predicated on your actual belief,in that which is NOT.As stated here..."If time flowed backwards, the consciousness of the 'thinker' would collapse into psychosis" AMAZING!

http://science-of-consciousness.blog...ousness-i.html

[zico20]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

Atheist since about the age of 8 and I had some highly religious relatives growing up I spent quite a bit of time with. My grandma on my father's side was the worst in trying to correct my "wrong" thinking. She lived till I was 42 dying at 99 just 45 days short of 100. I don't think she gave up trying to fix me till I was in my mid 30's. I seriously put the idea of God as feasible as Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, I started doubting his existence by the age of 5-6.

So you think God is as feasible as Santa Claus. Well here is one for you. The Universe creating itself from nothing is even less feasible. In fact, science has already determined that it can't. If you don't believe in God the creator, lets hear how the Universe came about, scientifically. Once you give your answer, I will offer a rebuttal.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by zico20

The Universe creating itself from nothing is even less feasible. In fact, science has already determined that it can't.

Physicist Lawrence Krauss disagrees with you.

Originally Posted by zico20

... lets hear how the Universe came about, scientifically.

Presently there is no consensus among cosmologists about how the universe came about. If you want to go from there and say that, since science does not presently have the answer, then God did it, you are invoking the God of the Gaps for which Neil DeGrasse Tyson has an excellent rebuttal. I'll be happy to post a link.

Here's a theory which was popular when I was studying for my B.S. It's lost favor today but it's not dead. It's called the Oscillating Universe Theory.

The universe was never created. It has always existed. Today the universe is expanding but prior to 13.7 billion years ago (before the big bang) it was collapsing. It finally collapsed into a singularity which then gave rise to the big bang. The Oscillating Universe Theory assumes that gravity will eventually bring the expansion of the universe to a halt and then again collapse into another singularity and the process will repeat.

To confirm the Oscillating Universe Theory one needs to confirm that the rate of expansion of the universe is slowing down. In 1998 physicists confirmed that it is not slowing down. In fact it is speeding up. Attempts to explain why have lead to theories of dark matter and dark energy.

The discovery that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down would seem to be the end of the Oscillating Universe Theory but it's not dead yet. It could be that dark energy which is powering the expansion will eventually be depleted and the expansion could eventually cease, leading to a collapse, singularity and repeat.

A companion to the Oscillating Universe Theory is the Big Bounce Theory in which the Big Crunch followed by Big Bang happened only once in all eternity. This theory is consistent with the 1998 discovery.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Actor

The universe was never created. It has always existed. Today the universe is expanding but prior to 13.7 billion years ago (before the big bang) it was collapsing. It finally collapsed into a singularity which then gave rise to the big bang. The Oscillating Universe Theory assumes that gravity will eventually bring the expansion of the universe to a halt and then again collapse into another singularity and the process will repeat.

No one knows what happened prior to the Big Bang. Fact.
Anything prior to the Big Bang is strictly speculation.
That speculation also goes against the fundamental of science wherein conclusions must be made on observations.
Since no observations can be made, no conclusions should be drawn.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Hank

Your apparent psychosis is predicated on your actual belief,in that which is NOT.As stated here..."If time flowed backwards, the consciousness of the 'thinker' would collapse into psychosis" AMAZING!

http://science-of-consciousness.blog...ousness-i.html

So, when your mom was pregnant with you, she was expecting you to what...to come out of her past. But if you were in her past, then you had already been born.

In the beginning of all things -- the moment the cosmic clock started ticking, Mr. Hank -- there was NO Past. Time "flowed" from the fountain called the Future.

[zico20]

Originally Posted by Actor

Physicist Lawrence Krauss disagrees with you.

Presently there is no consensus among cosmologists about how the universe came about. If you want to go from there and say that, since science does not presently have the answer, then God did it, you are invoking the God of the Gaps for which Neil DeGrasse Tyson has an excellent rebuttal. I'll be happy to post a link.

Here's a theory which was popular when I was studying for my B.S. It's lost favor today but it's not dead. It's called the Oscillating Universe Theory.

The universe was never created. It has always existed. Today the universe is expanding but prior to 13.7 billion years ago (before the big bang) it was collapsing. It finally collapsed into a singularity which then gave rise to the big bang. The Oscillating Universe Theory assumes that gravity will eventually bring the expansion of the universe to a halt and then again collapse into another singularity and the process will repeat.

To confirm the Oscillating Universe Theory one needs to confirm that the rate of expansion of the universe is slowing down. In 1998 physicists confirmed that it is not slowing down. In fact it is speeding up. Attempts to explain why have lead to theories of dark matter and dark energy.

The discovery that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down would seem to be the end of the Oscillating Universe Theory but it's not dead yet. It could be that dark energy which is powering the expansion will eventually be depleted and the expansion could eventually cease, leading to a collapse, singularity and repeat.

A companion to the Oscillating Universe Theory is the Big Bounce Theory in which the Big Crunch followed by Big Bang happened only once in all eternity. This theory is consistent with the 1998 discovery.

To start with, Lawrence Krauss is a fraud. He is an atheist first and a physicists second. His book A Universe from Nothing has been completely debunked. Read the New York Times rebuttal. Every time he is asked a question on his book he can't answer his own theories. He finally admits that there is no such thing as nothing. There was always something.

The Oscillating Universe Theory has been scientifically proven to be dead wrong. The Universe had an absolute beginning. The BVG Theorem is as close to a scientific law as you can get. It states that the Universe had an absolute beginning. Only atheists have not accepted the BVG Theorem since it goes against everything atheists believe in science.

People who understand science from an objective stand point accept the BVG Theorem AND the first law of thermodynamics. The Universe had an absolute beginning and nature cannot create energy or matter.

The Big Bang was the start of the Universe. It was the start of matter and energy. There was nothing before it. God started the Universe through the singularity known as the Big Bang.

Just because there is no cosmologist consensus among all you atheists on how everything started doesn't give you the right to use your atheism of the gaps. You know, science has not figured it out yet, therefore God doesn't exist. Science has worked on it, and materialism just doesn't cut it. The evidence points to intelligent intervention, aka super naturalism.

Oh, and BTW, don't bring up quantum physics. Particles popping in and out of existence are only on the SUB atomic level. No atom has ever been created on the atomic level. And they never will. The first law of thermodynamics assures that.

God created the Universe, science has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt. If you choose not to accept that, prove matter and energy can come from nothing. Which it can't. Prove the Universe didn't have a beginning, which it did.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by zico20

So you think God is as feasible as Santa Claus. Well here is one for you. The Universe creating itself from nothing is even less feasible. In fact, science has already determined that it can't. If you don't believe in God the creator, lets hear how the Universe came about, scientifically. Once you give your answer, I will offer a rebuttal.

There is no reason to argue the creation of the universe, no one can prove a thing. It is all theory. On the other hand if God created the universe why can't a fat guy in a red suit deliver presents to a billion homes in one night, it is equally as feasible.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by zico20

There was always something.

Originally Posted by zico20

The Big Bang was the start of the Universe. It was the start of matter and energy. There was nothing before it. God started the Universe through the singularity known as the Big Bang.

Your first conclusion is in opposition to your second one.
If there was always something, it existed before the Big Bang.
In effect, the energy and matter were present before the Big Bang.
The Big Bang would be the start of the form of the Universe we know today, but not the start of the Universe as that matter and energy existed before the Big Bang.

[zico20]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

There is no reason to argue the creation of the universe, no one can prove a thing. It is all theory. On the other hand if God created the universe why can't a fat guy in a red suit deliver presents to a billion homes in one night, it is equally as feasible.

Oh, but you are wrong. We have proven many things. The laws of thermodynamics are irrefutable. The BVG Theorem is irrefutable. I would venture to guess that atheist scientists have known about the BVG for decades. They just never published it. Why, because that would shoot atheism in the foot. Trust me, the only reason the BVG Theorem won't become a law like thermodynamics is atheist scientists wont make the same mistake twice. We all know that a majority of scientists are atheists, and they are certainly not going to help prove a creator.

Remember, almost all scientists who are atheists are atheists first, scientists second. They get into science to promote atheism, not science. It is a shame, but that is the way it goes. Lawrence Krauss is the perfect example. He promotes his atheist agenda by purposely writing books he knows is false. I rest my case.

[zico20]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Your first conclusion is in opposition to your second one.
If there was always something, it existed before the Big Bang.
In effect, the energy and matter were present before the Big Bang.
The Big Bang would be the start of the form of the Universe we know today, but not the start of the Universe as that matter and energy existed before the Big Bang.

I should clarify what I meant. There has always been something. Either it was matter and energy that are eternal OR a creator is eternal. I conclude that God is eternal and made all the energy and matter in the Universe through the Big Bang. The Universe is NOT eternal, proven.

There you guys go again. There is not one shred of evidence that matter and energy were present before the singularity known as the Big Bang. IF it were present, then you guys have an even bigger problem. That is how did all of the energy and matter in the Universe shrink into the size of a period at the end of the sentence. And why did it. You can't use the infinite cycle of Big Bangs. That has proven false through the BVG Theorem. And how did that singularity heat up to billions of degrees all on its own when space is frigid cold. Pretty freaking unrealistic to me. But go ahead and believe that fairy tale that matter can create itself. It can't! Case closed.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by zico20

Oh, but you are wrong. We have proven many things. The laws of thermodynamics are irrefutable. The BVG Theorem is irrefutable. I would venture to guess that atheist scientists have known about the BVG for decades. They just never published it. Why, because that would shoot atheism in the foot. Trust me, the only reason the BVG Theorem won't become a law like thermodynamics is atheist scientists wont make the same mistake twice. We all know that a majority of scientists are atheists, and they are certainly not going to help prove a creator.

Remember, almost all scientists who are atheists are atheists first, scientists second. They get into science to promote atheism, not science. It is a shame, but that is the way it goes. Lawrence Krauss is the perfect example. He promotes his atheist agenda by purposely writing books he knows is false. I rest my case.

I agree. Here is an honest guy who is interested in promoting the "Truth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson

[Actor]

Originally Posted by zico20

No atom has ever been created on the atomic level. And they never will. The first law of thermodynamics assures that.

Before I address other parts of your post I must ask you "what is the first law of thermodynamics?"

[zico20]

Originally Posted by Actor

Before I address other parts of your post I must ask you "what is the first law of thermodynamics?"

The total energy of an isolated system is constant, energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.