Belmont Day, possible strike looms

[breeze]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Com one now. Please do not imply that gate loaders is a highly technical and skilled position.
Any good horseman with the same ability to study the program, see the horses and their tendencies in the morning can do that job.
See unions have for decades tried to convince businesses that THEIR union people are the ONLY people skilled enough to do the jobs covered by the unions.
For decades business HAD to accept the terms or be shut down. Those days are over. The high wages and gold plated benefits are no longer sustainable.
Pensions? Companies can no longer afford to pay people to NOT work.
Unions make up about 8% of the total US workforce. That number has been dropping for 40 years.
Unions are no longer needed. Their terms unaffordable. Their adversarial business model no longer tolerated.
This is not personal. It's business.

"Any good horseman with the same ability to study the program, see the horses and their tendencies in the morning can do that job."

Exactly my point. A person cannot be plucked off the street nor would they let some kid who mucked stalls for a few weeks handle a horse in the gate.

It takes a HORSEMAN to know how to handle a fractious and/or revved up racehorse. Just knowing their proclivities is not enough as they must also know how to react and handle the horse. Many a non-track horseman would be lost with a racing thoroughbred in their hands. A non-horseman period could get someone killed.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by breeze

Did you work long enough to even hold the shank on a 2yr old? Or did you never get past stall mucking. Your response speaks to how little you know about racehorses.

Tell me oh "I worked the backside for a short while so know all there is to know" one, what would you do with a horse that tends to sit? one that flips? one that likes to dive under? one that always crosses their hind feet? etc etc

What body language would tip you off that a horse was preparing to do any of the above? I know by your posts that you could not even lead a fractious horse much less handle one in the gate.

A good gate crew saves lives. You,sir,should respect that and not speak of which you know so very little.

I worked with a 2YO colt that would try to take my head off when I first started with him. I got him to trust me after a few days. The damned horse hated people.
I figured out a lot of it on my own. I also had a cantankerous race mare which was a total "crap" head during mating season. She was a cow kicker. Got me just once. I found that controlling her tail would keep her from kicking to the side. Ahh, the curry comb. Run it down her side and reach back with my free hand and get the tail around her side and I was boss.
Other little tricks.. Watch the ears. If they pin them back, watch out. Grabbing that thing would get their attention.
One type I could never figure out was the "stomper" The horse that stomped their foot. Had one that stepped on my feet all the time. DAMMIT that hurt.
Look, you guys have a hazardous job. I've never loaded a horse into a gate. But I can tell you, I have loaded and unloaded them from trailers and there's one thing most horses have in common. They don't like confined spaces.
You guys can get crushed, stepped on, have your arm or hand trapped or crushed. It's tight in there. The pert where you have to hop up into the gate to hold the head straight looks like tons of fun.
Yes it is a hazardous job. Yet, that is not the point. There are tons of guys doing what you do across the country. You just happen to be doing it in a state where unionism is still pretty big.
It's the same thing as state workers who are union and those who are not. They are doing the same work all over and they do it well.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by GaryG

In a free market economy every worker would get exactly what he is worth. I fail to see how anyone could ask for more. If a worker wants to earn more money he needs to make himself more valuable and it will all shake out.

No, he would not. In the first place people are not going to change jobs willy nilly. In the second place employers know what the going rate is for a particular job in the area. In the third place. with unemployment at 8.1% and higher in some areas there is a surplus of labor. If labor was scarce your theory might have some validity, but labor is not scarce. It is all too plentiful.

The problem here is that you (and your conservative cohorts) are talking about individuals whereas I am speaking about categories. True a person working on an assembly line can make himself more valuable and get a promotion to line supervisor or foreman. But that is one person out of how many? The folks who assemble washing machines are not going to get a better salary at Whirlpool than at Maytag. Unless Whirlpool has a union and Maytag does not.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by breeze

"Any good horseman with the same ability to study the program, see the horses and their tendencies in the morning can do that job."

Exactly my point. A person cannot be plucked off the street nor would they let some kid who mucked stalls for a few weeks handle a horse in the gate.

It takes a HORSEMAN to know how to handle a fractious and/or revved up racehorse. Just knowing their proclivities is not enough as they must also know how to react and handle the horse. Many a non-track horseman would be lost with a racing thoroughbred in their hands. A non-horseman period could get someone killed.

Or himself. Or a horse.
I have seen them flip. I have had a horse that got spooked by a kid filling a bicycle tire in the barn area. I was just walking him. He went up and if not for a little trick a guy had told me about ,he would have gone over. I hate to say this, But I probably saved the horse from serious injury by kicking him in the belly which cause him to come right back down. I hated to hurt the animal, but I had to think quick. The horse got over it.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by thespaah

I worked with a 2YO colt that would try to take my head off when I first started with him. I got him to trust me after a few days. The damned horse hated people.
I figured out a lot of it on my own. I also had a cantankerous race mare which was a total "crap" head during mating season. She was a cow kicker. Got me just once. I found that controlling her tail would keep her from kicking to the side. Ahh, the curry comb. Run it down her side and reach back with my free hand and get the tail around her side and I was boss.
Other little tricks.. Watch the ears. If they pin them back, watch out. Grabbing that thing would get their attention.
One type I could never figure out was the "stomper" The horse that stomped their foot. Had one that stepped on my feet all the time. DAMMIT that hurt.
Look, you guys have a hazardous job. I've never loaded a horse into a gate. But I can tell you, I have loaded and unloaded them from trailers and there's one thing most horses have in common. They don't like confined spaces.
You guys can get crushed, stepped on, have your arm or hand trapped or crushed. It's tight in there. The pert where you have to hop up into the gate to hold the head straight looks like tons of fun.
Yes it is a hazardous job. Yet, that is not the point. There are tons of guys doing what you do across the country. You just happen to be doing it in a state where unionism is still pretty big.
It's the same thing as state workers who are union and those who are not. They are doing the same work all over and they do it well.

lol I am not a guy nor have I ever worked at the track as gatecrew. I have jumped in the gate at a training farm here and there to help get the babies schooled. I speak from the position of being the one the gatecrew risks their lives to save. I am a semi-retired jockey/trainer/owner. Semi because the itch to race never goes away.

Loading horses into a trailer does not compare with handling a horse in the gate. Once they are broke and running it is not the small space that makes it tough. It is the fact that the horse is geared to POWER OUT of that gate. It is what they are taught to do. They must be kept calm yet be alert to break properly. It is not easy and a starter would not pluck anyone off the street to work in the gate.

[iceknight]

Just wanted to add that I am not against unions because "free markets" do not really work. That is lot of crony capitalism happening and will continue to happen because a lot of it is uncovered only later on. Unions do provide valuable protection to a whole exploited class of workers. However, to have them read 40 hrs as 70 hrs simply based on day of the week.. that's a big stretch. hopefully the negotitated contract is somewhere midway.
Now, you do have to remember that lot of these employees have family members who go work or school during the regular Mon-Fri. So they do miss valuable time with their family on the weekends, so in that essence some additional compensation is justified (this is assuming that this for the greater good for largest no of employees).

[MPRanger]

Originally Posted by Tom

Probably because the union is looking to use the occasion to force them to agree unreasonable demands.

There are TWO parties involved here, three if you consider the state.
But you blame only NYRA?

They should agree to their demands, get thru Belmont stakes day then fire them all. It amounts to coercion.



Wikipedia:
Coercion ( /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by thespaah

NYRA is under no obligation to offer anything to the union.
Unions have no Constitutional right of first refusal to do business.
NYRA should tell the IBEW to piss off.
Any business should if it so desires, has that right.
The people of this country are sick of unions and their nonsense.
Get rid of them. Hire new people who will work at a more realistic wage.
There are lots of people out of work who will take those jobs and be happy about it.
There is no use for you to reply. I will not change the way I think on this matter.

Of course we will not change the way you think on this matter. Changing the way you thinks requires flexibility and intelligence on your part. Anyone who writes as you did, "Any business should if it so desires, has that right." is not very bright. Read that out loud and tell me what it means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Then you say, "Unions have no Constitutional right of first refusal to do business." Here's a clue. The Constitution doesn't say anything about unions or business except that Congress can make laws taxing and regulating businesses. And guess what? Congress made a law in the 1930's called the National Labor Relations Act and one of the provisions of that act was that unions do indeed have the right to strike. The same law guarantees that people have the right to form unions and to join unions without fear of retaliation. Maybe you should go and learn something before you come on here and start spouting nonsense.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by mostpost

No, he would not. In the first place people are not going to change jobs willy nilly. In the second place employers know what the going rate is for a particular job in the area. In the third place. with unemployment at 8.1% and higher in some areas there is a surplus of labor. If labor was scarce your theory might have some validity, but labor is not scarce. It is all too plentiful.

The problem here is that you (and your conservative cohorts) are talking about individuals whereas I am speaking about categories. True a person working on an assembly line can make himself more valuable and get a promotion to line supervisor or foreman. But that is one person out of how many? The folks who assemble washing machines are not going to get a better salary at Whirlpool than at Maytag. Unless Whirlpool has a union and Maytag does not.

That's nonsense. Because labor is a commodity, the marketplace determines wages.
I will give you an example.
There was a boat company named Baron Yacht Company. They wanted to build a plant near Beaufort, SC. The wages paid to workers there would have been higher than the prevailing market wage for the area. LOcal employers feared the plant would drive wages upward because the competition for workers would increase. The rest of the story is irrelevant.
Second example. Regions where FRacking rigs are set up are seeing market wages rise rapidly because the rigs pay scale is so high. Other businesses in these areas are having to raise their pay rates to keep their employees.
That is how the marketplace is supposed to work.
On the other hand, if there is high unemployment and say a company wishes to build a call center in that area. Of course the owners of the center would research the region and look at the labor market and then determine pay rates.
This is a very simple concept.
Once again this proves labor is a commodity. It is.

[PhantomOnTour]

Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour

There is 0% chance that this race gets postponed due to the possible strike.
A gate crew and all necessary employees will be there on Saturday, whether they are the regulars or replacements.
I am not concerned in the least bit that this will disrupt the Belmont Stks and undercard races.

Never a doubt in my mind

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Of course we will not change the way you think on this matter. Changing the way you thinks requires flexibility and intelligence on your part. Anyone who writes as you did, "Any business should if it so desires, has that right." is not very bright. Read that out loud and tell me what it means. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

Then you say, "Unions have no Constitutional right of first refusal to do business." Here's a clue. The Constitution doesn't say anything about unions or business except that Congress can make laws taxing and regulating businesses. And guess what? Congress made a law in the 1930's called the National Labor Relations Act and one of the provisions of that act was that unions do indeed have the right to strike. The same law guarantees that people have the right to form unions and to join unions without fear of retaliation. Maybe you should go and learn something before you come on here and start spouting nonsense.

No..Not flexibility. That would be compromising my core beliefs. It would go against all common sense and logic. Ask somebody else to do that.
And please, don't go thinking you can get me to enter into a pissing contest here. So stop with the silly semantics. If you had one scintilla of comprehension skills, you'd know the sentence you picked apart like a little kid plucking the onions out of his pasta sauce, was a continuation of a point.
But you go ahead and believe what you will.
You know everything. And cynicism is your way of expressing yourself on just about every thread on here.
Yes, unions have the right to job actions. However with restrictions on many fronts.
Of course the US Constitution does not mention unions. Unions are not part of the federal government. I used an absurdity to make a point. There are those who believe unions have absolute rights and freedoms. They do not. However, if that is presented to a union member, they have a cow over it.
Anyway, there is the fact that while labor organizations are quite legal. However, it is also quite legal for a business to refuse to bargain or to terminate further business with a labor organization.
Now, we're quite through here.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by iceknight

Just wanted to add that I am not against unions because "free markets" do not really work. That is lot of crony capitalism happening and will continue to happen because a lot of it is uncovered only later on. Unions do provide valuable protection to a whole exploited class of workers. However, to have them read 40 hrs as 70 hrs simply based on day of the week.. that's a big stretch. hopefully the negotitated contract is somewhere midway.
Now, you do have to remember that lot of these employees have family members who go work or school during the regular Mon-Fri. So they do miss valuable time with their family on the weekends, so in that essence some additional compensation is justified (this is assuming that this for the greater good for largest no of employees).

Umm. those who decided to become employees of NYRA knew the job required weekend work.
No one else except a very small number of people have the perk of working less than 40 hrs and being paid overtime.
And there are plenty of occupations which require work to be done on Saturdays and Sundays and those people are compensated straight time.
What the union is doing is demanding SPECIAL treatment. NYRA should hold their ground and strike the overtime condition from the next agreement. If the IBEW doesn't like it, they can take their workers elsewhere.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by breeze

lol I am not a guy nor have I ever worked at the track as gatecrew. I have jumped in the gate at a training farm here and there to help get the babies schooled. I speak from the position of being the one the gatecrew risks their lives to save. I am a semi-retired jockey/trainer/owner. Semi because the itch to race never goes away.

Loading horses into a trailer does not compare with handling a horse in the gate. Once they are broke and running it is not the small space that makes it tough. It is the fact that the horse is geared to POWER OUT of that gate. It is what they are taught to do. They must be kept calm yet be alert to break properly. It is not easy and a starter would not pluck anyone off the street to work in the gate.

I am not implying trailering is THE SAME....It is similar in that it's a place horses by nature do not want to go. So yes it most certainly DOES compare.
I had the friggin bruises to prove it.
As to your last sentence, my response is "no kidding"...
Gee I thought they could pick up a few day laborers and homeless guys to be on a gate crew. I am amazed...
Look, I did not work in the business for a very long time. However, in the time I was on the backstretch, I learned a lot. Most of it was on pure survival/self preservation instinct. I hung around people who were a lot smarter than I. I kept my ears open and my trap shut except to ask questions. I kept my eyes open and watched the experienced guys. When you are on your own in this business, few people want to help you. One must learn quick or go home.
As previously stated. This is not personal. It's business.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by thespaah

I am not implying trailering is THE SAME....It is similar in that it's a place horses by nature do not want to go. So yes it most certainly DOES compare.
I had the friggin bruises to prove it.
As to your last sentence, my response is "no kidding"...
Gee I thought they could pick up a few day laborers and homeless guys to be on a gate crew. I am amazed...
Look, I did not work in the business for a very long time. However, in the time I was on the backstretch, I learned a lot. Most of it was on pure survival/self preservation instinct. I hung around people who were a lot smarter than I. I kept my ears open and my trap shut except to ask questions. I kept my eyes open and watched the experienced guys. When you are on your own in this business, few people want to help you. One must learn quick or go home.
As previously stated. This is not personal. It's business.

Loading into a trailer does NOT compare at all. If you had ever spent any time working a gate or even just watching some schooling you would know this. The very beginning stages of breaking a horse to the gate does compare somewhat, but once they are sprung a few times it is not even close. Loading into a trailer would compare to walking a horse into a straight stall as opposed to a box stall. It is the race or anticipation of the work that makes the gate unique.

I am surprised nobody was willing to teach you on the backside. I have been to many many tracks and have always found there to be many people willing to help a new guy out. By your few examples of grabbing a tail to groom and grabbing an ear to control,you sure could have used some lessons. With the knowledge you have provided me,I know you were not in any way ready to crawl into a gate.

This is not personal it is just business. Working on the gate takes a lot of skill, courage and experience that even many race horsemen do not have much less someone with a short time on the track.

It is one of those"you know so little that you do not know how little you know" situations.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Or himself. Or a horse.
I have seen them flip. I have had a horse that got spooked by a kid filling a bicycle tire in the barn area. I was just walking him. He went up and if not for a little trick a guy had told me about ,he would have gone over. I hate to say this, But I probably saved the horse from serious injury by kicking him in the belly which cause him to come right back down. I hated to hurt the animal, but I had to think quick. The horse got over it.

Rearing is not the same as flipping. You would not kick a horse in the belly to bring them down when they go up. Basic horsemanship teaches you how to control a horse's feet. By learning their balance points you would be able to bring down a rearing horse.

Flipping is quick,they are up and over before you can stop them. Some horse's rear and then lose their balance or are pulled over by inexperienced handlers. But a flipper is very different. With a flipper you have to learn what triggers the flip and avoid it. Keeping a flipper moving is a useful tool for many of them. Some it is just a matter of reschooling and getting them to chill. Tailing a horse can prevent some from flipping in the gate. Most trainers get rid of flippers and send them down to the lower end tracks as they are very dangerous.