Racing as a Gambling Business

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Which explains the predictable response from virtually everyone involved following a fatal breakdown on TV that "it's a tragedy but it's part of the game". The stats suggest that about one of every 75 horses running during a given year will die on the track. Imagine that statistic in a human sport. It would be banned in an instant. Of course the horses don't matter, which is why it's a moral dilemma to love horses and horse racing at the same time.

What about foaling? Say the foal ruptures a blood vessel on the way out, poof the mare's gone. She could be in the best equine clinic in the country and it wouldn't make a difference. Or, the blood vessel ruptures days later when you think she's come through it fine. What's the fatality rate for foaling broodmares? I have looked for stats on this and can't find anything. With regard to registered TBs, does the Jockey Club not know, or is this yet another area where they would just rather not say?

[RXB]

Originally Posted by DeanT

The argument used about racing re: customers and horse owners, is logically sound, in my opinion.

If you owned a track and wanted to buy 1000 horses - similar to what Hong Kong has - hire people to work there and train and care for horses, and run a race meet you could.

So a track can buy the supply and function without horse owners. Handles, especially if it was the only track in town like a Sha Tin, would likely be mega millions a day.

But the track can't buy customers, so it can't function without them.

That would require a complete restructuring of the sport; the track won't claim horses from itself. I also don't think that racing in North America could ever get by without the large subsidy provided by horse owners, who put a lot more money into the sport than they get back from it; the racetrack operators are having a hard enough time making money as it is without also having to pay for the purchase and care of the horses.

I totally agree that racing has done a poor job of paying attention to its customers. But I think many people believe that horse owners are industry types when in fact most of them are actually customers. In my view, there should be a natural alliance between bettors and owners since they comprise the two groups that really fund the sport-- and especially since a lot of owners are bettors, too. But it doesn't seem to work that way presently.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

What about foaling? Say the foal ruptures a blood vessel on the way out, poof the mare's gone. She could be in the best equine clinic in the country and it wouldn't make a difference. Or, the blood vessel ruptures days later when you think she's come through it fine. What's the fatality rate for foaling broodmares? I have looked for stats on this and can't find anything. With regard to registered TBs, does the Jockey Club not know, or is this yet another area where they would just rather not say?

How could The Jockey Club know with any degree of accuracy? The events would have to be reported and I doubt many breeders' feel compelled to do so. Regardless, I suppose the mortality rate for mares foaling in a controlled environment could be lower than it is for mares foaling in the wild.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by Steve R

How could The Jockey Club know with any degree of accuracy? The events would have to be reported and I doubt many breeders' feel compelled to do so. Regardless, I suppose the mortality rate for mares foaling in a controlled environment could be lower than it is for mares foaling in the wild.

What does it matter if the mortality rate for mares on a breeding farm is lower than that of those in the wild. That shouldn't change the moral calculus with regard to the inherent risks. Horses who sustain ligament damage in the wild survive at a far lower rate than those on the track, does that suddenly make the track a safer place than you thought before?

Deaths are supposed to be reported to the Jockey Club, and requesting cause of death shouldn't present a undue burden. For those horses important enough to warrant an obit they generally provide one. Of course, we'd need to include mares in foal who die from pregnancy related founder or colic.

The more I think about it, especially given the breeding of mares in their late teens and twenties, the the less unlikely a 1.1% mortality rate seems. Which would put it on a par with racing the mare.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Steve R

I know a little about horses. I doubt that you do.

I always love it when the argument boils down to these sorts of gems.

You'd be surprised how hands on some of us around here are...

[breeze]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Your ignorance aside, The Jockey Club (you know (or maybe you don't), the official breed registry for Thoroughbreds) published data indicating a race-related fatal injury rate of 1.88/1000 starts in 2010 (as well as 1.98/1000 in 2009 and 1.88/1000 in 2011). Also in 2010 there were 417,192 starts which translates to 784 fatalities. There were 68,235 starters. So you're right. It's one out of 87 starters, not one out of 75. My bad. Of course, if you add the training-related and associated fatalities I think the one in 75 may actually be too high

As for a moral dilemma, I was referring to my own. I was a hands-on owner of pleasure and show horses for almost four decadess. I fed them every day, brushed them and exercised them - and I nursed them back to health when they were sick. I owned as many as 13 at a time including Morgans, Pintos and retired Thoroughbreds - mares, geldings and stallions. I showed horses throughout the Western United States for years and bred several regional champions. I know a little about horses. I doubt that you do. By any ethical standard, drugging horses to enable them to perform while keeping them enclosed in a confined space for 23 hours a day is an abusive practice.

Obviously my moral dilemma is not yours. I'll take a wild guess that your interest in the game is strictly from the gambling standpoint. I'll also guess that you wouldn't know the difference between a coronet and a fetlock or between a stifle and a gaskin without looking it up. So take your attitude down the road. You're one of the best arguments for banning the sport that I've seen in quite a while.

Morgans? really? Are you seriously stating that there are no drugs or abuse in the Morgan show world?

[Hambletonian]

how this thread shows the divide present. gamblers think that since they provide the dough (less and less dough, percentage wise, considering other subsidies that fund purses), racing should cater to their needs. in most venues, racing should cater to the slots players only, since they are providing most of the profits.

breeders think since they supply the athletes, they should be made whole.

lots of horsemen think the first two groups are a bunch of know nothing rubes, who, like mushrooms, should be kept in the dark and fed bullshit.

facts is, all three groups have one thing in common....they all are comprised primarily of folks losing money hand over fist.

if gamblers were enough, there would be no need for racinos. if horses were enough. people would pay to see them without gambling involved.

the only folks making out are the vets.

while i know from a fact that bad stuff has always gone on, and that the number of disreputable folks in racing has generally mirrored society, it looks now like the inmates are runnig the asylum, forcing everyone to get into a chemically induced nuclear arms race which is leaving us with pathetic racing, horses with the lifespan of hot house flowers, and tons of negative press. harness racing has suffered more than thoroughbred racing, but it still reaching the tipping poiint.

let me be clear, i believe that horseplayers should be treated with respect...the only problem is how do you compete giving a horeplayer a great deal with a backroom rebate shop with little overhead?

as an aside, the funny thing about this is that slot money, which should have made the horsemen happy, has apparently led to more carnage. I applaud the nysrwb for negating claims of horse euthanised during the race...the anecdotal story the other day of the connections of a dead horse high fiving when it was claimed say worlds about the current state or racing. and one thing is for sure...slots induced purses are not leading to better racing or enhanced on track handles.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Hambletonian

the only folks making out are the vets.

I can think of a bunch of trainers that would snicker at this comment.

[rowboat]

YOU FORGOT BOWLING WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS WAS THE MOST WATCHED ON TV.BASEBALL WORLD SERIES WAS PLAYED IN THE AFTERNOON.ROONE ARLEDGE OF OF SPORTS WIDE WORLD CONVINCED ROZELLE TO GO NATIONAL.WHEN THE BOSS BOUGHT THE YANKS ROONE GOT THEM TO NIGHT THINK HOWARD COZELLE THE BRONX IS BURNING.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.YOUNG PEOPLE AT THE TRACK BROUGHT SMALL RADIOS TO HEAR BASEBALL SCORES.SPORTS BETTING PICKED AND RACING DIEDWE HAD SCANDALS IN NY HARNESS OBVIOUS FIXED RACES A FEW RIOTS AT RR AND YONKERS.

WHEN THE SWAMP WAS BUILT THEY COULD HAVE MADE SMALL LOUNGES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO HOOK UP.THEY MISSED THE BOAT.TONS OF FAMILIES BUT THEY REALIZED THEY WERE TEACHING THEIR KIDS TO GAMBLE AND THEY FADED.

YONKERS HAD SO MUCH ROOM TO BUILD SPORTS BAR CLUBS CHANGE THEIR IMAGE.ATTRACT NEW BLOOD.THEY DIDNT CARE.IF THE ROONEYS RAN THE STEELERS LIKE THAT. NO ITS DOOM AND GLOOM ITS REALITY.IF NOT FOR ITW LOOK AT TRACK HANDLES

[comet52]

The horsemen and owners will look at bettors that way because bettors are junkies who'll keep coming back for more. The problem is actually that bettors have casinos by the ton to go to now for their fix so horseracing is dying.

Most horse tracks have to put in a casino now to survive but of course this leads to the question of, why run a casino to subsidize a horse track that would otherwise not be in business? Casino welfare for horse tracks is not a viable business model in the long term, eventually the casino operators will find ways to ditch the horses.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by breeze

Morgans? really? Are you seriously stating that there are no drugs or abuse in the Morgan show world?

Whenever there are humans involved there will always be some who abuse horses (or dogs or cats or any non-human species). I took the easy way out, limiting my involvement to the lower stress activities of English Pleasure, Western Pleasure, Pleasure Driving and Conformation classes. Nevertheless, I never saw a Morgan die in the show ring.