IMHO : ORB never got into the race. And he didn't like track.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by pandy

The three Triple Crown winners I saw, Affirmed, Slew and Big Red were certainly three of the greatest horses of all time.

I urge anybody who is too young to remember these horses to hit Youtube and watch those races. These were real race horses. In the mold of the past. None of these guys were hugely interested in "tactics" these guys did one thing. They went out and dared anybody to go with them. Even when they employed different strategies, it was from mid pack forward usually.

We rarely see this anymore. That's why I was enamored with Rachel A. That was an old school come and get me race horse.

While you're on youtube watch Holy Bull. It makes PA very happy.......and that horse fits my definition

[JPinMaryland]

the only problem is these are the same breed of horse, coming out of the same gene pool. It's not like they don't care anymore or are somehow an inferior breed or they got paid millions so now they aren't trying. There's the same level of competiveness that is driving the trainers and the breeders, there's no reason to think these horses have changed genetically or mentally.

You could argue about drugs and shortened campaigns. BUt drugs were prevalent even the 70s and campaigns have been getting shorter each decade I think since the 50s.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

I urge anybody who is too young to remember these horses to hit Youtube and watch those races. These were real race horses. In the mold of the past. None of these guys were hugely interested in "tactics" these guys did one thing. They went out and dared anybody to go with them. Even when they employed different strategies, it was from mid pack forward usually.

We rarely see this anymore. That's why I was enamored with Rachel A. That was an old school come and get me race horse.

While you're on youtube watch Holy Bull. It makes PA very happy.......and that horse fits my definition

I am definitely feeling and knowing you on this and felt the same way about Rachel A.I like the I am biggest,baddest,fastest,come fight me attitude.I'm only 40 but I remember thinking the same thing about the Leonard-Hagler fight when I was a little kid.You have to fight all out if you want to win.Fitness at it's ultimate in this sport embodies speed and that nasty will to look the other horse in the eye and run it into the ground.I don't totally subscribe to the greatness of any closer.Anything that disadvantages themselves by definition.To me,while I am disappointed about Orb,the hurt in one night's sleep has evaporated knowing that he wasn't that good.It didn't have to be a Secretariat evolution but seeing that horse over his TC evolve speed and will and nastiness.That's what it takes.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by nijinski

If you haven't read Haskin's Life and Death of Slew , you may enjoy it and change your mind about the connections .
I do not blame them for his physical aliments but they did some dumb things with him . That article points out the insisting of him to run in Cali three weeks after the Belmont and the Xerox nonsense . They were lucky he lasted
as long as he did , with thanks to Billy and his groom Polsten .

I remember that Billy Turner was an alcoholic and told the California press the horse was in prefect condition before the Swaps. (Unlike Johnny Longden before the Belmont with Majestic Prince, who told everyone that horse shouldn't run.)

Turner got fired, and held a big grudge because that and the alcohol ruined his career. So he trashed the owners to reporters.

Unfortunately, he's the source for all the Seattle Slew prose, so he has turned himself into a hero.

Don't believe sports biographies. This sort of thing is common.

[nijinski]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I remember that Billy Turner was an alcoholic and told the California press the horse was in prefect condition before the Swaps. (Unlike Johnny Longden before the Belmont with Majestic Prince, who told everyone that horse shouldn't run.)

Turner got fired, and held a big grudge because that and the alcohol ruined his career. So he trashed the owners to reporters.

Unfortunately, he's the source for all the Seattle Slew prose, so he has turned himself into a hero.

Don't believe sports biographies. This sort of thing is common.

My memory was that he said he needed a break . I believe the owners admitted their mistake . I know Billy was an alcoholic , he was going to crash sooner or later but he did right by the horse , and Slew was not the easiest
horse to manage .

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by pandy

The three Triple Crown winners I saw, Affirmed, Slew and Big Red were certainly three of the greatest horses of all time.

If you go 50 or 100 deep, sure. But Seattle Slew's career isn't long enough to compare to horses who had full seasons and won lots of races. How do you compare Slew to Stymie or Round Table or even Cigar?

Slew had a ton of ability, but he really didn't have that big list of race wins, and the only time he faced top class open competition was the 2 races against Affirmed. He really lacks the resume.

He was probably no better than the 6th most accomplished horse of his decade (Ack Ack, Secretariat, Forego, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid), and he may be lower. He's really not on any reasonably short list of all time great horses. Had he been able to run more, perhaps he would have been.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

If you go 50 or 100 deep, sure. But Seattle Slew's career isn't long enough to compare to horses who had full seasons and won lots of races. How do you compare Slew to Stymie or Round Table or even Cigar?

Slew had a ton of ability, but he really didn't have that big list of race wins, and the only time he faced top class open competition was the 2 races against Affirmed. He really lacks the resume.

He was probably no better than the 6th most accomplished horse of his decade (Ack Ack, Secretariat, Forego, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid), and he may be lower. He's really not on any reasonably short list of all time great horses. Had he been able to run more, perhaps he would have been.

That's like saying Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't great because he fought in Joe Louis' Era.Conversations like this IMO are flat out overthought into ignorance.Your intellectual discourse took you to a place where it is a lose lose theory.

[nijinski]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

If you go 50 or 100 deep, sure. But Seattle Slew's career isn't long enough to compare to horses who had full seasons and won lots of races. How do you compare Slew to Stymie or Round Table or even Cigar?

Slew had a ton of ability, but he really didn't have that big list of race wins, and the only time he faced top class open competition was the 2 races against Affirmed. He really lacks the resume.

He was probably no better than the 6th most accomplished horse of his decade (Ack Ack, Secretariat, Forego, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid), and he may be lower. He's really not on any reasonably short list of all time great horses. Had he been able to run more, perhaps he would have been.

He missed time at a vital age of his career . Nearly died of colitis , which
is what we watched Paynter battle .
Two races against Affirmed is huge . Another TC winner , not too shabby.

One thing for sure . Whatever accomplishment you feel he didn't do on the track , he made up for in the shed !