ARE WE BEING CHEATED ?

[twindouble]

Originally Posted by zafonic

I agree with you Twindouble and then there would be no doubt or perception of funny business.

In the 10th at MNR the #1 shot out of the gate, had an easy lead the whole way and drew off easy. He gradually drifted up from 7-1 to 9-1 while this was happening. I see this scenario often, especially with non-favs. So there is a good possibility this is paranoia and everything is on the up & up.


But Twindouble you are right, this is 2005 and we have the technology available to have real time data and leave no doubts in the minds of the public.

ZAFONIC

That's good when you bet the 9-1 shot, hope you had him. nice super.

[Zaf]

Originally Posted by twindouble

That's good when you bet the 9-1 shot, hope you had him. nice super.

It was a top CJ fig hoss, 3rd off the layoff, LONE E Type, so at that price I was obligated to bet

ZAFONIC

[twindouble]

Originally Posted by zafonic

It was a top CJ fig hoss, 3rd off the layoff, so at that price I was obligated to bet

ZAFONIC

That's great! I take it you don't play the supers there and I'm suprised anyones figures would hold water at that track. Third of the layoff is right on though. I'm sticking with Mountaineer, took a while but I have a good handle on it now.

[4Jayman]

I used to work for united tote and I can tell you that once the gates are opened the tote automatically locks for additional bets. The tellers have a safety feature on their machine which allows them to cancel tickets up to as long as the track managements policy says. At a TB track it is usually 15 to 20 seconds at a track with a lot of QH it will be about 5 to 8 seconds. Once the gates kick and the tote locks. The system polls the final #s from off track. There is usually at least one error alert telling the tote operator a link is down and the phone starts ringing from that track. These two operators work together to reset modems or whatever to get the link back. Usually switching to the back up does the trick and the money comes before the race is over.

You all are correct about when a pool has a lot of simulcast $ the odds can change a bunch after the start of the race. Even though the tote is polling for $ every minuete (or maybe more often these days) bettors everywhere tend to wait for the last minuete to bet.

I really doubt there is any cheating going on. Every keystroke of a tote room is recorded as required by the state racing commission. A tote operator would have to have a tremendous amount of security password clearence to manipulate the system. Maybe 3 people at the top of the tote company would have this clearence. The guy from Autotote who rigged the Pic 6 on the breeders cup was one of these individuals who had the passwords and even he got caught. He was trying to take down a million dollar plus pool which was worth the risk to him. I doubt anybody wants to risk prision for the win pool at HOU or RP.

[twindouble]

Originally Posted by 4Jayman

I used to work for united tote and I can tell you that once the gates are opened the tote automatically locks for additional bets. The tellers have a safety feature on their machine which allows them to cancel tickets up to as long as the track managements policy says. At a TB track it is usually 15 to 20 seconds at a track with a lot of QH it will be about 5 to 8 seconds. Once the gates kick and the tote locks. The system polls the final #s from off track. There is usually at least one error alert telling the tote operator a link is down and the phone starts ringing from that track. These two operators work together to reset modems or whatever to get the link back. Usually switching to the back up does the trick and the money comes before the race is over.

You all are correct about when a pool has a lot of simulcast $ the odds can change a bunch after the start of the race. Even though the tote is polling for $ every minuete (or maybe more often these days) bettors everywhere tend to wait for the last minuete to bet.

I really doubt there is any cheating going on. Every keystroke of a tote room is recorded as required by the state racing commission. A tote operator would have to have a tremendous amount of security password clearence to manipulate the system. Maybe 3 people at the top of the tote company would have this clearence. The guy from Autotote who rigged the Pic 6 on the breeders cup was one of these individuals who had the passwords and even he got caught. He was trying to take down a million dollar plus pool which was worth the risk to him. I doubt anybody wants to risk prision for the win pool at HOU or RP.

Thanks Jayman; I know there's safegards in place but that's not the perception of the general public. Another thing that adds to it is most people don't understand how the digital would works, like me. The question I have is, why do the tellers need extra time to cancel tickets? It's first come first serve always at the track, I got shut out many times tring to cancel.

Thanks,

T.D.

[Geekyguy]

Originally Posted by 4Jayman

I used to work for united tote and I can tell you that once the gates are opened the tote automatically locks for additional bets. The tellers have a safety feature on their machine which allows them to cancel tickets up to as long as the track managements policy says. At a TB track it is usually 15 to 20 seconds at a track with a lot of QH it will be about 5 to 8 seconds.

Which means someone who is dishonest could cancel tickets after they get to see the break.

[twindouble]

Thanks Jayman; I know there's safegards in place but that's not the perception of the general public. Another thing that adds to it is most people don't understand how the digital world works, like me. The question I have is, why do the tellers need extra time to cancel tickets? It's first come first serve always at the track, I got shut out many times tring to cancel.

Thanks,

T.D.

Dam, couldn't edit in time. Excuse the extra post.

[JackS]

This probably no longer exists but at one time races at HOL actually started a couple of seconds before the tote locked. There were a few "wise-guys" onto this anomalie known as "bell-ringers". Several would line themselves up from the starting gate to the tellers window and through a series of flashed hand signals ,would actually be able to get a bet down on the horse who broke favorably. This method was known to track officials and was cause for immediate ejection from the track for anyone caught.
Does anyone know if HOL changed their ways?

[Jeff P]

posted by Twindouble -

The question I have is, why do the tellers need extra time to cancel tickets?

This is in place to give the customer who notices a mistake made by the teller on a ticket punched just before the bell a chance to cancel that ticket. The extra time is designed to give the teller a small window to cancel after the bell.



posted by Geekyguy -

Which means someone who is dishonest could cancel tickets after they get to see the break.

Very true. You don't even need to involve a teller. Depending on the length of the time window for cancelling tickets at the individual track, a bettor who wishes to cheat the system can use some betting machines to cancel tickets. I discovered this by accident several years ago. I was standing in line at one of those betting machines and was getting antsy because I could see that the horses were at the gate for the race I was trying to bet and there were still three people in line in front of me. When my turn came the field was already in the gate. Trying to hurry, I accidentally fed another ticket for that same race into the machine instead of my voucher. I was presented with a touch screen menu that read "Cancel Ticket? YES NO." Before I could hit NO and feed in my voucher and make the win bet that I wanted to, the bell went off. I watched the horses break and run perhaps an eighth of a mile before I hit NO on the screen. As I was walking away it occured to me that the betting machine was located just beneath beneath a TV monitor. Could somebody conceivably bet an early speedster in a race, and feed their ticket into a machine and watch the break while the machine displayed the "Cancel Ticket? YES NO" menu? The idea being that if the horse on the ticket missed the break or lost a rider at the start the bettor could then cancel the ticket. A crook able to do that would obviously gain an edge over the rest of us because he would always be betting on horses that get a good start. A few races later, just to satisfy my own curiosity, I bet $2.00 to win on a horse and then found that I actually could cancel after the break. I then asked a teller I knew and she explained to me that bettors, just like tellers, could use the betting machines to cancel tickets up to a $50.00 limit and that the time window after the bell was 15 seconds. So yes, someone who wanted to be dishonest could subvert the system. That was in 1998 or 1999. I now bet primarily from home so I can't say with any degree of certainty whether or not the same time window or dollar limit still exists. But I'm guessing it does.

-jp

.

[cj]

Originally Posted by JackS

This probably no longer exists but at one time races at HOL...

Hollywood doesn't run mile races any longer.

[JackS]

CJ- I think you miss read the word "time" as mile. I had read about this many years ago and assume it pretained to all distances and long before the automated tote machines. If it still exist, I'm sure someone is taking advantage of it.

[4Jayman]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to the discussion.

The delay is for the benefit of the teller who makes a mistake. At the tracks I worked there was not a limit on the amount because management was concerned of the following scenario. A bettor places a $50 win at the last second and the teller miskeys the ticket as a $500 or $5000 win. Well if the horse wins the bettor is going to want the difference and if he doesnt win the bettor is going to refuse to pay the extra money. There are no doubt many tellers who are hooked up with other gamblers and are taking advantage of the delay. At one of the dog tracks I supervised we had a big problem with this because in dog racing one of two things happens 1 the best dog gets clear before the 1st turn and runs away from the field or 2 he gets wiped out in the 1st turn and barely finishes. At 10 to 15 seconds into a dog race most of us can make an accurate decision on if the dog got out clean and was going to be clear of any trouble. Track management kept a close eye on this via a report we ran for them that showed all of the canceled tickets and at what machine and time they were cancelled. When they identified the tellers that were obviously abusing the safety feature they were fired and there racing license was revoked by the state racing commission. I have sceen the same scenario take place with the same results at tracks that run a lot of Quarter Horses. I will tell you that Management at QH tracks are watching this like a hawk because they know that at 15 seconds most QH races are 80 % completed. The 3 bodies watching out for the public ( track mgt, tote, state commission) do a pretty good job for the most part when it comes to riding herd on the wagering pools. Now if they would crack down on The trainers and riders all we would be great but that is a whole nother ball of wax.

[DrugSalvastore]

Originally Posted by 4Jayman

The delay is for the benefit of the teller who makes a mistake. At the tracks I worked there was not a limit on the amount because management was concerned of the following scenario. A bettor places a $50 win at the last second and the teller miskeys the ticket as a $500 or $5000 win. Well if the horse wins the bettor is going to want the difference and if he doesnt win the bettor is going to refuse to pay the extra money. There are no doubt many tellers who are hooked up with other gamblers and are taking advantage of the delay.

I've recently heard the same from a teller. She told me that she hits a 'function six' button and can cancel a ticket 20 seconds into the race. She says they need the approval of a manager to do this though.

Seems like a great edge to have when betting 4.5 furlong races at CT.

At places I bet, the maximum ticket price can't come to more than $250. So, if I want $600 to win on a horse...I end up with two $250 win tickets, and one $100 win ticket. So, I don't think the teller could get stuck quite as much as the above post suggests.

[Geekyguy]

Originally Posted by DrugSalvastore

I've recently heard the same from a teller. She told me that she hits a 'function six' button and can cancel a ticket 20 seconds into the race. She says they need the approval of a manager to do this though.

Seems like a great edge to have when betting 4.5 furlong races at CT.

At places I bet, the maximum ticket price can't come to more than $250. So, if I want $600 to win on a horse...I end up with two $250 win tickets, and one $100 win ticket. So, I don't think the teller could get stuck quite as much as the above post suggests.

Playing exotics, one doesn't have this problem. I've also found with late money that horses often pay their pre-move odds in the exotic slots.

Still, I see too many cases where the prices drop sharply late in the race. If they want to prove it's late money, then they need to speed up the feed. I don't see why all the money can't hit the pools within five seconds of the bell stopping betting. Anyone who cancels a ticket after post time should be forced to fill out a form that is kept on file at the track.

As for the nightmare error scenario, maybe it's time to do away with tellers altogether, or institute a "buyer beware" policy. The few times a teller takes a shot and claims an error, insurance should be able to cover that.