Why Tracknet is in big trouble

[chickenhead]

Originally Posted by cj

You are right, but I have little faith that this industry could do anything as efficiently as Walmart. I have even less faith they would try to price the product to generate growth.

I know, and that's the problem, idiots at the helm.

For now we need to root for PTC to become the Walmart.

[Premier Turf Club]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

I know, and that's the problem, idiots at the helm.

For now we need to root for PTC to become the Walmart.

More than just root. Player's have to vote with their wallets. It's handle that catches everyone's attention. The more handle we have, the more room they make for us at the table.

I know that sounds self-serving (and to an extent it is) but anyone that plays with us can attest that there is a difference in terms of technology and customer service. I hope now that we've gotten more content we will see a big spike in handle.

[chickenhead]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

More than just root. Player's have to vote with their wallets. It's handle that catches everyone's attention. The more handle we have, the more room they make for us at the table.

I know that sounds self-serving (and to an extent it is) but anyone that plays with us can attest that there is a difference in terms of technology and customer service. I hope now that we've gotten more content we will see a big spike in handle.

I'm sure this is stating the obvious, but you have to get California opened up. For a large percentage of players, rooting is what we're limited to.

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Indulto

What I don't understand is all the antipathy toward horsemen here after more than a YEAR of continuous complaining about CDI, MEC, DragNet, Evans, Stronach, and Daruty.

So you can't place a bet while somebody takes these guys on with a discipline you can't muster without some industry marketing mouthpiece holding your hand. Too bad!

If you really want the changes to the industry that I've been reading here for the last 2.5 years, then you should support the horsemen and then follow their example to achieve what you want.

Evans comes off as a malevolent despot and Stronach an emporer in need of clothes. Daruty is seldom quoted in other than vague generalities while nothing good has happened for horseplayers outside of CA since he appeared on the scene. And that was in spite of his efforts, not because of them.

The Eight Belles tragedy isn't the only straw breaking the camel's back. It will take a revolution to straighten this game out and we've just witnessed the Louisville Tea Party.

Thank you Indulto, I agree whole heartedly.

[Murph]

Originally Posted by cj

I think the reason is that the plan the horsemen want will do absolutely nothing to help the bettor, and could even hinder any bettor friendly changes in the future. At least with the status quo, there is an opportunity for the bettors, as PTC demonstrates, to get a break. The more you give horsemen, the less there is for us. What do you think the horsemen winning will gain for the horseplayer?

What it will gain for bettors is an ADW platform that can be served by anyone who builds an interface. I do not understand why folks think the tracks should have the majority of profits from ADW sites. When the horsemen can sell their signal to anyone willing to pay the cut, the wagering opportunities will increase. As far as keeping a cut aside for rebates, I cannot support this in any way.

Some one who would presume to tell me how much and when I must bet in order to recieve anything, can go to hell. I will bet when and where I choose without restrictions or rebates.

Sit on your ass at home and play by the same rules and track takes as everyone else. Don't expect to be rewarded with rebates on your action unless you choose to knuckle under to an ADW's terms for distribiuting any returns. That is the choice for ADW's to make. They do not deserve anything additional from the horsemen's purse account because this is how they choose to operate their ADW.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Murph

What it will gain for bettors is an ADW platform that can be served by anyone who builds an interface. I do not understand why folks think the tracks should have the majority of profits from ADW sites. When the horsemen can sell their signal to anyone willing to pay the cut, the wagering opportunities will increase. As far as keeping a cut aside for rebates, I cannot support this in any way.

Some one who would presume to tell me how much and when I must bet in order to recieve anything, can go to hell. I will bet when and where I choose without restrictions or rebates.

Sit on your ass at home and play by the same rules and track takes as everyone else. Don't expect to be rewarded with rebates on your action unless you choose to knuckle under to an ADW's terms for distribiuting any returns. That is the choice for ADW's to make. They do not deserve anything additional from the horsemen's purse account because this is how they choose to operate their ADW.

ADWs aren't asking for anything additional...horsemen are.

I'm not all that concerened with rebates. It isn't personal...for the game to thrive, we need lower takeouts, which is all that rebates are. I'd much rather have lower rake for EVERYONE.

[Premier Turf Club]

Re: California:

Yeah, I know we need to get licensed there. We're trying to now. Again, the biggest issue is going to be that California doesn't allow rebaters. I don't know how we're going to get around that.

[chickenhead]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

Again, the biggest issue is going to be that California doesn't allow rebaters. I don't know how we're going to get around that.

If the rule is CA residents can't be rebated (since Youbet rewards are limited to non CA customers I'm guessing that's it?)....just don't rebate them.

Use that extra money to increase rebates for non-CA players, improve your interface, hire lobbyists, whatever.

If the rule is you can't get in if you rebate non CA players on non Ca tracks...that's a different story.

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

Re: California:

Yeah, I know we need to get licensed there. We're trying to now. Again, the biggest issue is going to be that California doesn't allow rebaters. I don't know how we're going to get around that.

Like Chick says, just get in here, rebates or not. Given a chance to vote with our wallets., we should be able tohelp address that deficiency with you. I'd suggest, however, that you hold onto our share until you are able to find a legal way to use it to our individual benefit.

[Javagold]

Smith turned out to be a joke and a fraud....all of horse racing took a few steps back with that pansy at the helm

Originally Posted by Indulto

IF the NTRA under Smith had done it's job, it would have created a single ADW funded by all tracks which took bets on all without being a profit center.

Turns out Smith's dark side was the Empire.

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by Murph

What it will gain for bettors is an ADW platform that can be served by anyone who builds an interface.

You are transparantly trying to play the players for fools, Murph. It won't wash. When the horsemen are fighting for ONLY open access, they will deserve and receive the support of players. But we both know your inference that the greedy bastards are trying to do something for the players is a load of horseshit, don't we.


I do not understand why folks think the tracks should have the majority of profits from ADW sites.

That's only because you refuse to see the inconvenient reality of the horsemen's economic position. The tracks and ADWs/OTBs should be allowed to keep whatever the market says they should because the tracks are the ONLY sellers and the ADWs/OTBs are the ONLY buyers of signals. The horsemen have no place, whatsoever, in that interplay.


When the horsemen can sell their signal to anyone willing to pay the cut,

You can't be that naieve ... or dumb ... can you? The HORSEMEN HAVE NO SIGNALS TO SELL!! They don't own any signals because they don't own any races. If horsemen want to get into the signal-selling business, let 'em buy a damed track so they can have races to call their own. Until then, the ALL of the signals belong to the tracks ... and to the tracks ALONE.


the wagering opportunities will increase. As far as keeping a cut aside for rebates, I cannot support this in any way.

You just managed to contradict yourself within one sentence. (Hey ... I'll bet your a horseman, aren't you. They don't make any sense, either.) You don't give a damn about "bettng opportunities" for the players. Stop trying to play us for fools.


Some one who would presume to tell me how much and when I must bet in order to recieve anything, can go to hell.

But it's perfectly acceptable for you horsemen to be able to dictate to the tracks how they spend THEIR revenue, isn't it? Typical selfish, hypocritical, horsman horseshit.


<snip>


Sit on your ass at home and play by the same rules and track takes as everyone else. Don't expect to be rewarded with rebates on your action unless you choose to knuckle under to an ADW's terms for distribiuting any returns. That is the choice for ADW's to make.

That's exactly what you just finished saying you want!! No rebates for the players. In other words ... "the same rules and track takes as everyone else." Your comments are solid confirmation of horseman ignorance.


They do not deserve anything additional from the horsemen's purse account because this is how they choose to operate their ADW.

That's probably why they aren't trying to get anything from the horsemen. The ADWs/OTBs negotiate only with tracks.

And, in so doing, they aren't behaving like horsemen ... whining like a bunch of greedy, selfish, spoiled brats demanding something it makes no economic sense for them to have.


Furthermore, I suspect that the ADWs understand that they can't take anything from you that YOU DON'T HAVE in the first place ... such as REVENUES FROM SIGNALS THAT DON'T BELONG TO YOU!!

Murph, horsemen such as you are the reason you're finding little sympathy for your greed among players.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

Re: California:

Yeah, I know we need to get licensed there. We're trying to now. Again, the biggest issue is going to be that California doesn't allow rebaters. I don't know how we're going to get around that.

Why not offer ZERO rebates on California, but maybe tie California bets to say another track (one of your larger margin tracks, lets say ABC Track)

If you make bets at California tracks, you get an extra X% on your bets at ABC Track.

Zero rebates for california tracks, but more on ABC...

Just a thought, probably wouldn't work because it would be seen as backend...

[startngate]

Originally Posted by Scav

Why not offer ZERO rebates on California, but maybe tie California bets to say another track (one of your larger margin tracks, lets say ABC Track)

If you make bets at California tracks, you get an extra X% on your bets at ABC Track.

Zero rebates for california tracks, but more on ABC...

Just a thought, probably wouldn't work because it would be seen as backend...

Actually Scav, I think Ian is saying California doesn't allow its residents to receive rebates, which is the "issue" he has as far as getting licensed goes.

[Burls]

Originally Posted by startngate

Actually Scav, I think Ian is saying California doesn't allow its residents to receive rebates, which is the "issue" he has as far as getting licensed goes.

Unfortunately, it's much worse than that.
Drew J Couto, President of the Thoroughbred Owners of California, maintains the following (in another PA thread):

From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues.

So Drew doesn't want any bettors anywhere to get rebates from betting on California tracks. According to his Bizzaro logic, by giving me a rebate on my wagers, instead of just keeping that money for themselves, Joe and Ian are actually causing the California betting pools to shrink. So it is crucial that the Thoroughbred Owners of California do everything they can to prevent this sort of thing from happening. The best way they can do this is by vetoing all attempts by PTC, or any other ADWs that offer rebates to bettors, to gain access to the California Track signals.

A sensible person would think that if my bankroll is eroding more slowly per $100 wagered, as a result of the cushioning effect of the rebates, the total amount I wager over time will actually be increased by the rebates. Rebates would create churn; not reduce it.

What if I am actually profitting by my wagering, though?
With the rebates, I would profit at a slightly higher percentage.
According to Drew, this would "reduce the overall amount of churn in the pools"?
How? You may ask.
The additional money I'm getting from the rebates is not coming from the pools.
It's coming from the PTC bottom line.
So, if some of my profits are coming from the rebates, this actually reduces the amount of profit that would have to come from the pools, thus increasing, not reducing, churn.
The fact that Joe and Ian are allowing their profit margin to be reduced "harms" no one but them.
And, regardless of whether I am a winning or losing bettor, it helps the pools.

This seems simple enough to me.
But Drew et al refuse to listen to reason here.
Their minds are made up and that's the end of it.
And these are the people Ian has to convince that it would be a good thing to give PTC access to California Track signals.
You have my condolences on that front, Ian.

[Cangamble]

Anyone who wins money in the long run is taking out churn money from the system, and increases the takeout for everyone.
However, winners serve a better purpose for the industry. Winners are the only way to attract a sustantial new base of customers.
The problem with regular track takeouts is that winnng players (if any) make up such a minute amount that new players aren't attracted.
With rebaters, the tide has turned, and ADW's like PTC create HOPE again, that one can break even, or even win in the long term.