HANA, where you at?

[chickenhead]

Not sure why Scav is being called a troll or was responded to in the way he was. He brought up an issue that should be of concern to any horseplayer. I don't see it as a "LOL at HANA" at all. But a genuine question about what they think about what happened and if there are any plans to do anything about it.

He's the one that said it was an "LOL @ HANA". Which you know, as you posted in the thread. You can't troll people AND play victim, it just doesn't work. One or the other.

You are? I didn't realize that....but then again, I'm not the one with paranoid delusions in this thread.

I tell you what, instead of taking cheap shots at me from behind a keyboard, stop by and say hi some time. Or even meet me for a drink in Saratoga. I'm easy to find.

Ah, the other old favorite "I'm public and you're not -- therefore you're likely a troll if you are arguing with me."

If I disagree with you, it's because I think you're wrong about something -- not because of who you are, and not because we're on the internet. I've also agreed with you, when I thought you were right.

It's funny you're accusing me of cheap shots in this thread after your grand entrance.

I often find a mind set from people in NY, particularly people close to NYRA, that NYRA is unfairly put upon. A siege mentality. It's pervasive. And I find it to be a serious hindrance for being able to talk to them, often, about anything. Because it is always there, under the surface, coloring things. It's like a magnetic pole, something taken for granted by them, even if they don't realize it.

For people for whom NYRA is just another set of tracks, just like any other -- it can be a bit much after awhile. The entire spirit behind that Byk thread is just strange. Apparently Cali has now been adopted, like an orphan child, and now they're unfairly put upon, too.

Obviously, this is not specific to you. I've witnessed you have this chip on your shoulder, yes. I'm baffled you can't admit it, it's fairly strong part of the persona you project. But I've also noticed it with many perfectly anonymous people, people I know nothing about. It has zero with you being a public persona, so please don't throw that back at me. It's a years long thread of behavior, clearly established well before you showed up here.

Never been to Saratoga, but if I make the trip some time I'll look you up. I certainly have no embarrassment over anything I've ever said to you. Somehow I imagine your personality would change more in person than mine would.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

He's the one that said it was an "LOL @ HANA". Which you know, as you posted in the thread. You can't troll people AND play victim, it just doesn't work. One or the other.

What are you talking about? Where did he "LOL at HANA" in this thread? Here's a thought, instead of having a temper tantrum because in some paranoid rage think people are laughing at you, address the issue.

[chickenhead]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

What are you talking about? Where did he "LOL at HANA" in this thread? Here's a thought, instead of having a temper tantrum because in some paranoid rage think people are laughing at you, address the issue.

Don't play dumb.

Pointing out the origin of your friends question, and his comment on this subject on your normal board isn't a "temper tantrum". It's called "providing context".

Nothing paranoid or angry about it, it's pretty weird you and Andy seem to keep throwing those words around. Like I said, strange under currents always abound.

If you want to address the topic, I've addressed it multiple times in this thread, given my thoughts on what I think a good policy would be. You've never addressed the topic -- you've trolled me instead. Why don't you take your own advice? You want to talk about scratches and horizontals, scavs wants to talk about scratches and horizontals, Andy wants to talk about scratches and horizontals -- DO SO -- let's talk about them.

But no, just with the trolling.

[Tom]

Scav seems to have achieved his goal here.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

Don't play dumb.

Pointing out the origin of your friends question, and his comment on this subject on your normal board isn't a "temper tantrum". It's called "providing context".

Nothing paranoid or angry about it, it's pretty weird you and Andy seem to keep throwing those words around. Like I said, strange under currents always abound.

If you want to address the topic, I've addressed it multiple times in this thread, given my thoughts on what I think a good policy would be. You've never addressed the topic -- you've trolled me instead. Why don't you take your own advice? You want to talk about scratches and horizontals, scavs wants to talk about scratches and horizontals, Andy wants to talk about scratches and horizontals -- DO SO -- let's talk about them.

But no, just with the trolling.

I've never addressed the topic? Yesterday I was accused of beating it to death and today you're telling me I've never addressed the topic. Weird how that works. I addressed the topic in two different threads yesterday. I seem to be one of a handful of people that seem to be put off by the whole thing. Does anyone bet here? The friends thing is a nice touch here. Hopefully gains you some important brownie points.

And I'm not playing dumb. I had to go back and read the thread on DT to see what you were talking about. Why not address it there if it bothered you so much? Why derail this thread with your hero act? Frankly, considering what happened and the fact there has been no response I can see why it's pretty laughable.

There's one person trolling here and it's not Scav, me or TLG. It's the guy trying to be a hero. I'm sure your friends would be very proud.

[highnote]

Fortunately, HANA seems to get mostly positive feedback, but I am still struck by how often they are criticized.

HANA is a volunteer organization. They can not possibly deal with every racing ill. They have to pick their spots.

Individual bettors have to learn to use their own personal power and advocate for themselves. Of course, it never hurts to bring up an issue on a racing forum and try to get some feedback or ask for help.

Bettors should not be afraid write letters to the editor of Daily Racing Form. DRF needs content. They will probably publish most letters. They've always published mine - even the poorly written ones. LOL

If a bettor is not comfortable writing a letter they should ask for help from someone here at PA. I'm sure someone here would be willing to assist with grammar and spelling and presenting the argument clearly and concisely.

The HANA board members are all volunteers. Volunteering is perhaps the greatest contribution that individuals can make to society.

[chickenhead]

Yes, Florida needs to change their rules re this. What the rules would best be, maybe you and I would agree or not, I have no idea. It's not a Gulfstream specific thing.Possibly other states too, to be honest I've rarely bet horizontal in many states, I personally don't know what the rules are everywhere. No, Hana does not currently have any policy on this that I've seen, on specifically this one issue of handling entry scratches in mre. Yes, I'd like to see them develop one and work with the tracks and legislatures to implement it. The first part of that is getting horseplayers to agree on what the rules should be. "different" isn't a policy.

There are a million things racing needs to change. This is one of them.
I'm certain its been noted, again, as something Hana can try to work on.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by Tom

Scav seems to have achieved his goal here.

Bingo! Tom cuts through the nonsense ............

[chickenhead]

And I would have added, sincerely, for people that seriously have this as a major issue...become its champion and put in work on it...get a consensus from players, figure out the laws, put together a proposal. The reason so much activity took place around California is some energetic horseplayers came together and put in work on it. Andymays, rww, others more privately, many hours of work. It doesn't just happen.

I don't want anyone to accuse Hana of being rude again by asking for help, but I was being honest about that part. It's a volunteer org. If you feel strongly about something, volunteer. Pretty much any lack of attention on something cut and dry has to do with resources.

That's all been said before...but I guess it bears repeating. Yes, I stick up for Hana. Unapologetically. They work their asses off and I appreciate it.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by Tom

Scav seems to have achieved his goal here.

Nice work. I feel foolish for trying to answer honestly earlier in the thread.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by DeanT

Nice work. I feel foolish for trying to answer honestly earlier in the thread.

Such a victim. Poor guy.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

Fortunately, HANA seems to get mostly positive feedback, but I am still struck by how often they are criticized.

HANA is a volunteer organization. They can not possibly deal with every racing ill. They have to pick their spots.

Individual bettors have to learn to use their own personal power and advocate for themselves. Of course, it never hurts to bring up an issue on a racing forum and try to get some feedback or ask for help.

Bettors should not be afraid write letters to the editor of Daily Racing Form. DRF needs content. They will probably publish most letters. They've always published mine - even the poorly written ones. LOL

If a bettor is not comfortable writing a letter they should ask for help from someone here at PA. I'm sure someone here would be willing to assist with grammar and spelling and presenting the argument clearly and concisely.

The HANA board members are all volunteers. Volunteering is perhaps the greatest contribution that individuals can make to society.

The idea of HANA is a good one, but the issue is that they are now part of the problem because, like racetracks and to a lesser extent horseman, they think they are the most important thing. HANA portrays that takeout is bad, but without takeout, there would be no racing. Especially since everyone bets from home now, takeout is even more important and we are lucky are not paying 30% on WPS. California is still one of the lowest in WPS and exotic takeouts in the nation, why not attack other tracks? Wait, is it because the 4 volunteers liked betting Santa Anita, and now they won't because they aren't getting 2$ less on every $100

What I find hilarious is that HANA is secretly taking credit for this 18% drop in handle and it is absolute BS. Any serious handicapper/gambler is gonna be taking the cautious approach to a brand new surface in the first 3-4 weeks. OF COURSE they were gonna be down on handle. I would be willing to bet that come February once the surface has set in and people become comfortable handicapping it, they will improve their handle to be better then last year, barring weather or things out of their control.

[bigmack]

Originally Posted by Scav

What I find hilarious is that HANA is secretly taking credit for this 18% drop in handle and it is absolute BS.

Secretly? Do tell.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by Scav

... the issue is that they are now part of the problem because, like racetracks and to a lesser extent horseman, they think they are the most important thing.

Really? What is it about HANA that makes you think that they think they are the most important thing?

HANA portrays that takeout is bad, but without takeout, there would be no racing.

Really? My impression is that HANA does not think takeout is bad, they think that Santa Anita raising takeout instead of lowering it is a bad thing. Everyone knows it costs the tracks money to put on the show and purses need funded. My impression is that HANA thinks that handle will grow if takeout is lowered to reasonable and optimal levels.

California is still one of the lowest in WPS and exotic takeouts in the nation

Really? I bet that if you take a minute and do a little research you can name a dozen tracks with lower exacta takeouts than Santa Anita.

What I find hilarious is that HANA is secretly taking credit for this 18% drop in handle and it is absolute BS.

Really? Secretly taking credit? If it's a secret then how do you know?

Any serious handicapper/gambler is gonna be taking the cautious approach to a brand new surface in the first 3-4 weeks. OF COURSE they were gonna be down on handle.

Really? How do you know that a serious handicapper/gambler is gonna be cautious? There must be a lot more serious handicapper/gamblers than I thought! I guess that's a good thing.

I would be willing to bet that come February once the surface has set in and people become comfortable handicapping it, they will improve their handle to be better then last year, barring weather or things out of their control.

Really? How much are you willing to bet?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

John, great counter points.
The answer to the question "why California?" has been answered many times. But it keeps being asked by those who aren't listening. The reasons are at PlayersBoycott.org.

Aside from that, anyone with a clue would realize that California handle will drop relative to the industry because blended takeout rate has now gone up at least 8%.

It doesn't matter that their supers and tris are lower than many other tracks, the fact is that any track that increases blended rates from the optimal takeout rates (which studies have shown to be 14% or less) will suffer. Doesn't matter if it is Churchill Downs or Philly Park. Raise handle and a relative decline will happen.
Sure, there are other factors, but takeout is the most important.
One of the biggest factors is field size, but I don't see it changing much in California. First off, field size is not as elastic as takeout when it comes to betting. Secondly, I don't see a major influx of horses to California, and now with handle way off, any outfit thinking about going to California has to be realistically believing a purse cut is looming on the horizon. And the third thing that will kill field size is the injuries due to the paved highway horses are running on in Santa Anita right now. Not only while racing but in trainer, a hard track causes a lot more injuries, which will hurt starts per horses.

Value has been decimated, and it will only get worse, as the below average bettors get wiped out quicker.

Anyone who "thinks" that things will be better in February, is completely out of touch with reality. From what I've read, there is a pretty big bias right now, and bettors are on that (at least those who aren't boycotting). Nobody who is betting Santa Anita right now is holding back. No one is on the sidelines.

I agree, this thread has been derailed by trollish behavior by a couple of posters.

One has an obvious agenda to bash HANA with rhetorical nonsense.

Back to the topic at hand. I vote for elimination of entries. But what exactly could HANA do about this, since every jurisdiction is different...even on non entry scratches....some pay consolations, and some substitute the favorite.

Personally, though I'd rather be able substitute my own selection, subbing in the fave isn't horrible, and most bettors find it acceptable. I don't think any Horseplayer holds back from betting horizontals because of the fear of a scratch being replaced by the fave.

The scratched entry part after bets were made doesn't happen enough to make it a priority item either, and it doesn't curb Horseplayers from betting horizontals either. When it happens to me, probably once a year tops, I just look at it as being left at the post, I hope for the other entry mate to surprise, and then I turn the page, win or lose.