Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Jesus was not your typical human, oh wise one.
Very simple. You may recall that Jesus is called the Son Of God In other words Jesus is God incarnated in the flesh. This everyone knows but you.
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Wow! I don't know what I'd do without your fake pearls of wisdom. But let's fly with your implied premise that Jesus was
unique. (Of course, he wasn't so unique when you gave praise to Buddha a few weeks ago -- but be that as it may...) And I'd bet my life that if you lived 4,500 lifetimes. you would never come to the knowledge of the depth of His uniqueness, since you're so ignorant of His Word.
By appealing to Christ's divinity (incarnation), you have unwittingly dug an even deeper pit for yourself. For example, did you know that even though Jesus possessed two natures -- one being fully divine, the other being fully human -- that as his Father's lowly, humble Servant who came into this world to do his Father's will,
Jesus totally laid aside his divine prerogatives? (Rhetorical question. Of course you don't.) For one, he actually experienced being a human being with all our human frailties and weaknesses, such as hunger, thirst, weariness, sorrow, learning and growing in knowledge, etc. But these would not have been his frailties if he hadn't freely chose to
suspend his divine prerogatives. The Greek term Christian theologians use to define this act is
kenosis.
As one Christian writer puts it:
Answer: The term kenosis comes from the Greek word for the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in His incarnation. The kenosis was a self-renunciation, not an emptying Himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Jesus did not cease to be God during His earthly ministry. But He did set aside His heavenly glory of a face-to-face relationship with God. He also set aside His independent authority. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
As part of the kenosis, Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28). God does not get tired or thirsty. Matthew 24:36 tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” We might wonder if Jesus was God, how could He not know everything, as God does (Psalm 139:1-6)? It seems that while Jesus was on earth, He surrendered the use of some of His divine attributes. Jesus was still perfectly holy, just, merciful, gracious, righteous, and loving - but to varying degrees Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent.
However, when it comes to the kenosis, we often focus too much on what Jesus gave up. The kenosis also deals with what Christ took on. Jesus added to Himself a human nature and humbled Himself. Jesus went from being the glory of glories in Heaven to being a human being who was put to death on the cross. Philippians 2:7-8 declares, "taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" In the ultimate act of humility, the God of the universe became a human being and died for His creation. The kenosis, therefore, is Christ taking on a human nature with all of its limitations, except with no sin.
https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.html
I differ from the opinion of this author on the point of Jesus' attributes. I think Jesus
personally surrendered ALL his attributes ALL the time during his first advent, save for his eternalness which is the very essence of his being. This is why He said what he did in Mat 24:36. On the other hand, it's very clear also that Jesus exercised divine attributes through his many miracles, through his omniscience, etc. But we must not forget that his disciples did great miraculous works also, in Jesus' name. Yet, they were not God incarnate! So, what did the apostles and Jesus have in common:
The Third Person of the Trinity -- the Holy Spirit? Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit was always filled with Spirit of God. Always. If John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit of God in his mother's womb, how much more his Messiah whom John acknowledged was far greater than him (Lk 1:43; Mat 3:11).
Moreover, there are numerous other passages that tell us that Jesus always relied on the Holy Spirit
and not on his own strength. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mat 1:18). The Holy Spirit visibly descended on Jesus at his baptism (Lk 3:22). Jesus was led by the Spirit in the wilderness to be tempted (Lk 4:1). Jesus returned to Galilee in in the power of the Spirit (Lk 4:14). Jesus himself said the Spirit was upon him, thus fulfilling prophecy (Lk 4:18). Jesus rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit (Lk 10:21). Jesus' ministry was performed in the power of the Holy Spirit (Act 2:22). Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit (Act 10:38). Jesus offered himself up as a sacrifice to God by the Spirit (Heb 9:14). Jesus was physically resurrected by the power of the Holy Spirit (1Pet 3:18).
In short, Jesus entire life was lived in the power and leading of the Holy Spirit; and God likewise expects his New Covenant people today to also live their lives in the same power and leading of the Holy Spirit.
Nowhere in scripture are God's people expected to sin (fail spiritually/morally) so that we can grow!. You Mr. Light, sound like those early professing Christians who preached sin so that God's grace could abound to them even more! Nowhere in scripture does any writer of scripture excuse sin or teach that there is a positive side to sin, i.e. personal spiritual growth.
Rom 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
NASB
If sin (spiritual/moral failure) is such hot stuff that is NECESSARY for spiritual growth, how come the entire tenor of scripture warns us to
STOP SINNING? How come mankind is warned to repent of its sins and turn to God?
1 Tim 5:20-22
20
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning. 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thus share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
NASB
And from the lips of your "best friend" himself:
John 8:11
11
And she said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go your way. From now on sin no more.
NASB
See also Lk 13:3,5; 15:7,10,32; Jn 5:14; Rom 2:4, etc.
Not only this, but Jesus like his Father
HATES sin! So why would God welcome the entrance of sin into this world, since he hates it?
Rev 2:6
6
'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
NASB
But I do agree wholeheartedly with the author of the above article about what we should focus on when studying the kenois:
What Jesus took on, i.e. a human nature. While Phil 2:7 is the key passage dealing with the doctrine of the kenosis of Jesus, there is another important passage that tells us why He did this. Why He humbled himself -- why he "emptied" himself of all his divine prerogatives. I'm not going to have time to plumb the great depths of this following passage, but I will make a few key comments which will greatly shore up my interpretation of Phil 2:7 -- which is, again, that Jesus freely chose to
SURRENDER ALL his divine prerogatives
ALL the TIME during his first advent. Here is the key companion passage to Phil 2:7 that sheds great light on this Philippians passage:
Heb 2:6-18
6
But one has testified somewhere, saying,
"What is man, that Thou rememberest him?Or the son of man, that Thou art concerned about him? 7 "Thou hast made him for a little while lower than the angels;
Thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,And hast appointed him over the works of Thy hands; 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. "
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9
But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 saying,
"I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren,In the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise."
13 And again,
"I will put My trust in Him."
And again,
"Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me."
14
Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same,
that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
NASB
A few brief, key points:
1. Jesus was made
lower than the angels but equal to his human brethren. While angels are powerful beings, nonetheless they have limitations. They are not omniscient. They are not omnipotent, etc. Jesus clearly took on -- assumed those limitations so that he could submit himself entirely to his Father and to the leading and power of the Holy Spirit. The passage even says that God gave help "to the descendant of Abraham" (i.e. Jesus).
2. Jesus was "made like his brethren in ALL things".
This means he took on their limitations as well!. This must mean and can only mean that
He SURRENDERED ALL HIS DIVINE PREROGATIVES. Jesus ALWAYS operated within the confines of human limitations (which again differs from what the above quoted author wrote about the kenosis). Jesus didn't sometimes exercise his own divine attributes and sometimes not.
3. And verse 13 tells us why! "I (Jesus) will put my trust in Him" (Ps 91:2)! This is why Jesus Christ is the absolutely perfect role model for all believers today. Believers today are expected to
believe God, i.e. trust God (as opposed to merely "believing in God". And Jesus trusted his Father
perfectly as he proved by his perfect, sinless life. His implicit faith in his Father resulted in his perfect faithfulness to Him and to his Father's purpose for Him.
All these passages that I have quoted or cited are devastating to your appeal to Jesus' divinity (i.e. his incarnation). Jesus' incarnation was not his free "get-out-of-jail" card, as you obviously think. Or others here have expressed the idea in the past that the crucifixion had to have been a cake walk for Jesus since he was divine. You are right though at one point and one only: Jesus was unique. He was not a typical human being. But it wasn't because he flexed his divine muscles when he needed to. It was because he humbled himself and took on flesh and the form of a lowly servant to come to this dark, forlorn world to do the will of this Father which was save those whom the Father had given to him in eternity. Jesus wasn't typical of any human being that came before or has come after him because
He always TRUSTED Himself to his Father and His plan and purpose for Him.. This is what makes Jesus Christ the must unique human being who ever lived. Jesus, in his humanity, proved irrefutably that sin was
NOT the Golden Path to enlightenment or spiritual growth, as you hold out sin and all its evil consequences to be (e.g. suffering, sorrow, pain, etc.)
So, now this brings us full circle back to the First Adam, now that we have learned a few things about the Last Adam -- things which I know would never enter your mind.
First off, you should read and digest my 7298 that I addressed to Thaskalos. In that post, I stated that Adam had every benefit that we today do not have and explained why.
From what I have just written, the First Adam also had advantages over Jesus Christ himself!. Like the Last Adam, the First Adam had no sinful nature to entice him. But unlike Jesus, Adam didn't have a sinful world to entice him. There was no corruption in his pristine world (to be understood as the "world system"), which would have worked to the First Adam's advantage.
Also, unlike the Last Adam, the First Adam had to deal with only one temptation, and this was an
indirect one by Satan since the devil actually tempted Eve. This was another advantage over the Last Adam.
Moreover, like the Last Adam, the First Adam came into this world
spiritually alive; for he possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit. Since Adam spiritually died the day he quit trusting God and chose to eat the fruit, it stands to reason that in order for one to die, one must first be alive! But we don't have to "merely" infer this. The creation account makes it clear that Adam was indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Gen 2:7
7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
NASB
In other words, Adam was
BORN FROM ABOVE BY the SPIRIT of the LIVING GOD. Adam's soul was spiritually alive unto God! In fact, I believe this is what Jesus was really getting at in John 3 when he told Nicodemus that he must be "born again". The "again" was alluding back to the first man who was born from above! (Don't forget: It was Nicodemus who totally misunderstood Jesus and went down the rabbit trail of physical birth.) And we mustn't forget that subsequent to Adam's sin, all his progeny, save for Jesus, have come into this world spiritually stillborn -
DEAD. Unlike Adam before he sinned, everyone comes into this world with a corrupt, sinful human nature.
And we should not forget that Jesus being The Life --the Author of Life -- also breathed on his disciples and the Holy Spirit fell on them.
John 20:22
22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASB
Finally, you appeal to Adam's ignorance as an excuse as to why he was destined to fail (sin). Seriously? God gave Adam physical and spiritual life just so He [b]could/b] only respond to the test by sinning and dying!? Again, this Buddhism nonsense is totally contrary to scripture
and to Christ's sinless life. You keep using the square pegs of Buddhism to try to fit into the round holes of the bible, and you come off as total fool. Jesus never had personal, experiential knowledge of evil; yet he never sinned! How could this be possible if your theory had a scintilla of credibility to it?
2 Cor 5:21
21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB
And,
Heb 7:26
26
For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
NASB
And,
1 Peter 2:21-22
21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22
who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
NASB
And, Jesus himself asked this rhetorical question about his sinless life -- the second question you should really ponder for the sake of your own soul's life!
John 8:46
46
"Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
NASB
So...since the Last Adam never had any personal knowledge of evil, since he never failed in order to succeed or grow or to acquire a God-consciousness (whatever that is) or to achieve "enlightenment" -- and since Jesus always relied 100% on the leading and power of the Holy Spirit, then what excuse could the Last Adam possibly have had for failing the test!? He not only had every advantage over each one of us, but also had advantages over Jesus himself! Another way to look at the First Adam's advantages is by examining Adam's pre-Fall
experience with God-- and I know how BIG you are on stressing experience over everything else, including the Word of God. Since Adam had the indwelling Holy Spirit within him and he was created in God's pristine, perfect paradise, the following passage would apply to Adam's "all-important"
spiritual experience. You'll appreciate this passage, I'm sure -- (NOT!).
Heb 6:4-6a
4
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance...
NASB
I omitted the last half of verse 6 since that part of the passage would not be relative to the First Adam. But everything else in this passage is relative!
Don't forget: Adam walked, talked and communed with God in the Garden before the Fall. He
personally experienced God from within and without!
And no one on this planet came into this world more enlightened than Adam! Even Jesus had to learn and acquire knowledge!
And from everything created, Adam was able to easily deduce the great power and wisdom of God and all that awaited him in terms of "powers of the age to come" if he remained faithful to God.
As I told Thask, God's test was much more than fair! And since Adam and God talked, Adam experienced the "good word of God" -- the Word of which you're so dismissive.
And finally, this passage would apply to Adam because there is no evidence in scripture that Adam repented or that God elected him to be saved, unlike Eve. In fact, the evidence is strong that Adam was truly cast out of God's presence forever when God "drove" him from the Garden.
I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your nonsense, since I have just demolished your two major premises which was: Sin and suffering and pain and sorrow and all this evil stuff is so very good for mankind's spiritual benefit because it's so
necessary, and that Adam really didn't have a true choice in the matter. But when it comes down to it, all Adam had to do was use the "good word of God" like Jesus did with Satan in the wilderness to rebuff all Satan's temptations. All Adam had to do, for example, was quote Gen 2:16 and believe those "good words of God" and the devil would have been defeated on the spot. This strategy worked three times for the Last Adam in the wilderness, so surely it would have worked for the First one in the Garden.
