KEEN ICE!!!

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Steve R

A :26.3 finish off a :48.1 half mile while saving ground the whole way is a "losing" trip? You'll have to explain that to me.

Too many numbers. Watch his interaction with Frosted, and watch how it tires him.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

The surface of this track was more demanding, so, why wasnt the horse stabled there for the past few weeks getting used to it? Also, they could have saved shipping the horse via aeroplane. I wont even mention the jockey and his lack of spa riding experience as well as not having one mount on the undercard.

This well may have made quite a difference. Pharaoh has racked up more frequent flyer miles than any horse in North America. His not being here to train, and too, his jockey in to ride only him in the Travers, no other races today? I think both of these moves were detrimental. Though taking nothing away from Pharoah who ran the whole way today in defeat.

Keen Ice has been, here, in Saratoga. Dale Romans knew his horse was improving, working well over this track. Subsequently, he put the best jockey in the country on his back. Javier was a smart move.

It was a fine horse race, an exciting one.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Redboard

How do you know? Not another one of his questionable ADW spreadsheets he likes to post here.

Spoke in the morning. That's how. And yes, I can't believe I got $9,500 for a slight spread with a 3/5 in my eyes with a 1/5 in my eyes and Keen Ice.

I didn't come on here and say I hit it, Kash was just congratulating me.

Not a huge hit, just a decent one.

I don't like to post my ADW stats, I was questioned and showed them to prove that what I say is true.

[Rex Phinney]

Baffert doesn't play the same at Saratoga because his horses win with speed. It's no secret, Baffert's first choice is to get on the lead and try to carry the speed to the finish line, it's the way all his horses run. This is why he makes a killing at Santa Anita, this is why he does so well in the Haskell vs the Travers, shorter race and much more speedball friendly track.

AP didin;t lose today because anything went wrong, he lost today because not every track is going to allow you to get to the lead and carry it.

I cannot overstate the role of Frosted here, I love seeing them send the horse and push, I get so tired of seeing this pattycake pace, sit behind the leader BS. When you run against a horse like AP you simply cannot sit and wait behind him, this is the way racing should be. You want to win big races like the Travers, you better be ready to work for the lead and/ or fight off multiple comers.

I did not think the first 1/2 was very fast at all, Frosted really hung in there vs. AP though, the 3rd quarter was the one that got AP beat.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Too many numbers. Watch his interaction with Frosted, and watch how it tires him.

Of course it tired him. Why? Because he's NOT the superhorse that people claim he is.

That track was so souped up RIGHT BEFORE race 8. The inside and speed all of a sudden became the place to be.

He jogged for a half mile. Any very good horse puts away Frosted and holds off Keen Ice easily.

He is NOT a superhorse. He's been tested twice (and I use the word tested mildly as I dont think he's been reaaaaaaally tested in his trips). Once in the Derby (extremely mild test) and today (not that amazing of a test).

He was visibly done in the third quarter, not winning.

Cigar in the Pacific Classic was a horse who got burned by pace.

AP was not burned by pace or dynamics here.

He was put to the test and failed.

People need to seriously stop thinking with their heart.

There is no way on paper, on the track or if we lived in an upside down world that this horse should have lost today. Lone speed, souped up track, weak 3 year olds, jog for a half mile etc. and he lost.

That's what made it sweeter.

Kudos to Keen Ice because if he didn't suck up, all we would be hearing is how gutsy and admirable AP is.

Paleeeze. He's not gutsy. Medaglia D"oro was gutsy in defeat in the Classic. Seattle Slew ran the best race of his life being gutsy.

I didn't see gutsy out there today.

I saw a horse who was floundering home in almost 27 seconds. (and yes, I get the fact that he ran a fast 3rd n 4th quarters but he had a joke of a first half and any CHAMPION would've had enough in the tank to rattle off a fast second half mile AND A 25 second closing quarter to win by 7) He is off the board if there were 3 decent thoroughbreds out there with him to gobble him up in the lane.

Not being a jerk, speaking logical facts.

This is the sweetest loss since Zenyatta was exposed by Blame.

[Rex Phinney]

Wow dude way to class it up. Even a Zenyatta blast for good measure, get a grip.

It is one day, one race.

[iceknight]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Not being a jerk, speaking logical facts.

This is the sweetest loss since Zenyatta was exposed by Blame.

a broken clock is right twice a day. Congrats on getting one of ur guesses right today. And Zenyatta wasn't "exposed" for anyone who knows a little about racing, not just the ribbon waving fans. She lost by a neck to a multiple G1 winning horse

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by iceknight

a broken clock is right twice a day. Congrats on getting one of ur guesses right today. And Zenyatta wasn't "exposed" for anyone who knows a little about racing, not just the ribbon waving fans. She lost by a neck to a multiple G1 winning horse

HA HA HA. Broken clock. Guess the correct time stops on my broken arms 1440 times a day......

Zenyatta....She didn't win with an ultra perfect trip in the BCC. People spoke of her as the best. If you're the best, YOU WIN. Not come close to a G1 winner blah blah blah.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Rex Phinney

Wow dude way to class it up. Even a Zenyatta blast for good measure, get a grip.

It is one day, one race.

It's a perfect analogy. I don't understand why comparing this loss to Zenyatta's loss is an issue?

She was overhyped, overprotected and of course they limited her exposure AND LEGACY to an all or nothing 1 race (I don't count her SA BC win on that used rubber, candles and other foreign substances) in the CD BCC.

She came up short when it mattered.

In my opinion, AP was overhyped, over exaggerated and treated like a superhorse of yesteryear.

All I asked for was for him to actually be tested just a little bit so we can see if he has the talent/guts of a Champion.

I didn't think it would happen in the Travers as he was staying within his 3 year old weak foes, track got souped up right before race 8, rail became fine, was lone speed etc.

I thought it would happen in the BCC.

And that's what makes it all the more sweeter.

I bet against him anyway and believe it or not, it's NOT about $$$$. It's about people giving way too much credit to the current "wonderhorse". He's not Secretariat. He's not Seattle Slew. He's not Holy Bull. He's not Cigar.

In a way, I find it insulting the super horses of yesteryear are compared to AP. Let him prove it first.

Am I not allowed to rejoice in his loss when he gets put to the test and fails?

And yes, it was a perfect analogy (Blame crushing Zenyatta's heart in the lane and IN THE GALLOP OUT).

[cj]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

HA HA HA. Broken clock. Guess the correct time stops on my broken arms 1440 times a day......

Zenyatta....She didn't win with an ultra perfect trip in the BCC. People spoke of her as the best. If you're the best, YOU WIN. Not come close to a G1 winner blah blah blah.

She was a 6yo mare, they waited too long to really challenge her on dirt. Blame was hardly a world beater, but he was good enough to beat her at that point. But nobody would say he was a better horse than Zenyatta overall.

[Laminarman]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

He won an average pace battle and was visibly not winning from the 1/2 mile pole.

If this horse is the super wonder horse that everyone speaks of, he should not have lost that race.

He's not a super wonder horse in my opinion.

You were the one saying when asked horses don't go faster.

He was tested, he was asked, just like he was in the Derby.

His Derby was not impressive to me. Said it 10000 times.

Keep in mind , I love the classic angle of horses who win pace battles and lose the war but I was not impressed by this winning of a pace battle and losing the war.

Gotta look at this and wonder if you ever played a competitive sport in your life. I would have loved to see AP win, but am fine with the outcome. All athletes have good and bad days. I've seen every athlete in every sport stink up the joint on occasion. Saying AP should win all the time is ridiculous. I think pouncing on this win like you are vindicated is, well,..below you. . And that's from me, who knows shit about horse racing. Just sayin'....

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by cj

She was a 6yo mare, they waited too long to really challenge her on dirt. Blame was hardly a world beater, but he was good enough to beat her at that point. But nobody would say he was a better horse than Zenyatta overall.

Yes, I wish they ran her on the dirt earlier. For a filly, 6 was late. I too, wanted to see if she could match up with the big boys on dirt in big races.

Overall body of work, I'll say Zenyatta as well. Blame peaked late as well so I can't argue that.

Sorry, the testosterone was flying earlier, I apologize.

Was being told AP can't lose by dozens of people today at the BIG A. As you know, received major flack on here as well for critiquing his Derby, Preakness and Belmont.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Laminarman

Gotta look at this and wonder if you ever played a competitive sport in your life. I would have loved to see AP win, but am fine with the outcome. All athletes have good and bad days. I've seen every athlete in every sport stink up the joint on occasion. Saying AP should win all the time is ridiculous. I think pouncing on this win like you are vindicated is, well,..below you. . And that's from me, who knows shit about horse racing. Just sayin'....

I think this conversation starts and ends with your last sentence. Not being a jerk but if you don't know much about horse racing, how can you possibly understand how I feel?

I bet this game with blood sweat and tears. With real money, not play money. Forgive me for being told you're wrong 54,000,000 times and when the horse that SHOULD NEVER lose under any circumstances LOSES, if I had a childish moment and said I told you so.

Yes, I played baseball and basketball feverishly. This is not the same. I'm not here to give credit for little johnny for trying. Johnny was supposed to win.

To use an analogy, the Yankees of the 2000's should have won 6 championships. They were buying players left and right. They were GOLIATH vs. little David's.

I laughed and cherished all their losses in 9 out of 10 years.

AP is a nice horse. He's cute, he's loveable. I am an animal lover myself. But, until he proves he's a Champion in the true meaning of the word, I will not recognize a horse as a Champion.

Forgive me for cherishing his loss. If I though he was a Champion, I would be crying for his loss. I don't think he is one.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by alhattab

Class I watched the first few races then went out. From the first few dirt races I thought there was a clear outside advantage. Then I heard on the radio both Unbridled Forever win the Ballerina off a :46 half and Runnin Happy win the King's Bishop starting from the far outside and figured outside paths continued to be best. Watched the Travers on TV and couldn't believe Espinoza got the lead and didn't float Frosted wide into the CH turn. He should have been in the 3/4 path I thought. I didn't get it and may speak to Espinoza not knowing the track and not riding earlier on the card. Saw some other commenters suggesting track changed later in the card but there wasn't much to go on w Private Zone winning for fun. Thought Espinoza was clueless and thought the track was definitely favoring outside paths.

I was watching every replay and head on while at the track. After they ran the first few races on dirt I ran into one one of the DRF writers. I told him that if AP was my horse I'd tell Espinzoa to go to the lead and immediately take him out to the 3 path. At that stage 3-4 horses that ran inside had run below my expectations. The evidence got more mixed after the 7F races. My feeling going into the Travers was that it probably wasn't death in there, but you still want to be in the best path and that probably wasn't the rail. So why be in there?

I'll do my analysis tomorrow when I'm fresh and have all my figures, but either way, I don't think that was the same horse we saw in the Haskell. I agree on your other point. If you are a jockey, you should be riding in other races on the card to see how the track is playing.

[MutuelClerk]

Kent Desormeaux

Oops.