Ticket Construction. The battle of the Pro's vs. On Air Analysts. Who's right?

[Andy Asaro]

Lots of Dust-ups on Twitter, mainly from ITP who frequently criticizes on air analysts for the tickets they present to the public. Although he may be harsh in his criticism he is the real deal when it comes to gambling and wants to see horse racing grow by teaching Horseplayers how to gamble intelligently. I agree with him.

Some on air analysts put up some outrageously bad tickets. One of the latest dust ups was between ITP and Andy Serling. IMO Serling is one of the better/best on air analysts/handicappers who does his homework. But, most of us could use some help improving the tickets we play including me.

Have a listen and give your opinion.

Twitter

[ubercapper]

The message can be easily lost by how the messenger conveys it. Perhaps if he wasn't nasty and didn't attack people personally, he might be more well received.

The attitude conveyed is both unnecessary and counter productive to some good discussions which can be had on social media and on pace advantage on various topics including wagering strategy.

I'll give one clear example for those who may not be aware or are on Twitter much. Last month I wrote many people who attend the races do so with making a profit not being their primary goal. (The key was the word "primary.") I didn't just leave it there. I expressly added many people have as their primary motivation to attend the races things other than profit (socializing being just one example).

Never did I write their goal was to lose. Yet, ITP and others twisted those words to say I wanted people to lose. Then it got nasty because reading and critical thinking appear to have been abandoned.

I then ran a poll asking people to think about other people and vote whether a majority would be prefer to 1. Cash 4 of 8 races and make a small profit or have a small loss or 2. Bet one race and make a 100% profit. This poll had over 500 votes and came out 56% for option 2 and 44% for option 1.

The sample size was valid and the results proved my point. It was another perspective some people who bet every day or bet for profit appear unable to wrap their arms around.

I'll conclude by saying if someone doesn't like what another person writes or if it disagrees with their point of view, that should provide an opportunity to share viewpoints and in the end, agree to disagree and part peacefully. In the alternate, just leave it be.

As the late justice Antonin Scalia wrote: "I attack ideas. I don't attack people. And some very good people have some very bad ideas. And if you can't separate the two, you gotta get another day job."

[craigbraddick]

One thing I have learned calling and doing social media for a track with a large winter following like Turf Paradise is we simply cannot rely on a grandstand full of people making small wagers race after race (attendance will never be what it was thirty years ago unless there are major changes to the entire industry no-one wants to make) and although people can make small wagers online and play every day (and we want to make them feel part of the action) I tried during the meet to develop relationships with what I would consider to be the mid level horseplayers (in terms of their handle.)

After one season, I have drawn the following conclusions:

1. Takeout is not as big a consideration to many mid-level horseplayers as perhaps it is to horseplayers here on Paceadvantage. Though I can imagine the higher you go up the wagering scale as a horseplayer, the more important it becomes.

2. Everyone has bets they like and prefer...a Pick 5 or a Pick 6 almost regardless of carryover does not appeal to the same category of horseplayer who prefers straight bets or specializes in Exactas, Trifectas and Doubles.

3. Listening to a mid-level (handle wise) horseplayer is really the key to keeping their business. I have had countless complaints about horses getting beat, the wagering menu, etc. and people saying: "I will never play your track again." Yet, if you talk to them (and sometimes that means taking a risk and calling them out on what they say) I have often found people WANT to play but more importantly WANT to be listened too. More often than not you are not going to be able to solve their issue but to LISTEN to them and LEARN from them totally changes the dynamic if they want to communicate. Some of the people who initially made the most ardent complaints were the ones I ended up texting back and forth with during the whole meet about who we like in certain race and so on. If people who work at tracks do not treat horseplayers as people of the most important value, nothing will ever work.

4. Analyst picks (and I had to make picks every day) have to be seen for entertainment purposes only. You may learn something, you may not, but if every single race caller and every single analyst no matter how diligent they are (or are not!) made a profit as a horseplayer, they probably would not be working at the track for a living!

5. There needs to be widespread access to very simple past performances. Form figures for the last six races, a plus or a minus by the name to indicate early or late pace and a sentence or two about each horses chances. When people are ready to take it more seriously, they can start tackling the past performances and learning the nuances of them.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

The message can be easily lost by how the messenger conveys it. Perhaps if he wasn't nasty and didn't attack people personally, he might be more well received.

The attitude conveyed is both unnecessary and counter productive to some good discussions which can be had on social media and on pace advantage on various topics including wagering strategy.

I'll give one clear example for those who may not be aware or are on Twitter much. Last month I wrote many people who attend the races do so with making a profit not being their primary goal. (The key was the word "primary.") I didn't just leave it there. I expressly added many people have as their primary motivation to attend the races things other than profit (socializing being just one example).

Never did I write their goal was to lose. Yet, ITP and others twisted those words to say I wanted people to lose. Then it got nasty because reading and critical thinking appear to have been abandoned.

I then ran a poll asking people to think about other people and vote whether a majority would be prefer to 1. Cash 4 of 8 races and make a small profit or have a small loss or 2. Bet one race and make a 100% profit. This poll had over 500 votes and came out 56% for option 2 and 44% for option 1.

The sample size was valid and the results proved my point. It was another perspective some people who bet every day or bet for profit appear unable to wrap their arms around.

I'll conclude by saying if someone doesn't like what another person writes or if it disagrees with their point of view, that should provide an opportunity to share viewpoints and in the end, agree to disagree and part peacefully. In the alternate, just leave it be.

As the late justice Antonin Scalia wrote: "I attack ideas. I don't attack people. And some very good people have some very bad ideas. And if you can't separate the two, you gotta get another day job."

Did you listen to the show?

[Andy Asaro]

Twitter

Twitter

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Last edited by Andy Asaro; 05-05-2021 at 02:29 PM.

[Andy Asaro]

Twitter

[thaskalos]

What "Inside The Pylons" forgets is that the 'horse racing industry' isn't concerned with competing against the other legalized forms of gambling out there. They are satisfied to just get a "piece of the pie" of whatever new gambling venture appears on the horizon. When casinos became widespread, horse racing didn't bother making their own game a little more affordable so they can compete with this new "enemy"...all they did was ask to get into the casino business themselves. And the same exact thing is happening with sports betting.

Horse-betting will become an afterthought in a few years, IMO. Even the horse racing business itself is grooming the loyal horseplayer so he could eventually become a casino or sports bettor. How else do we explain the glamor surrounding the casino players at the racetrack...while the hardcore horseplayer has to go past garbage cans in order to get to the horse-betting side of the place?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm sorry...is this a thread about ticket construction or the general state of the game? I'm confused.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

What "Inside The Pylons" forgets is that the 'horse racing industry' isn't concerned with competing against the other legalized forms of gambling out there. They are satisfied to just get a "piece of the pie" of whatever new gambling venture appears on the horizon. When casinos became widespread, horse racing didn't bother making their own game a little more affordable so they can compete with this new "enemy"...all they did was ask to get into the casino business themselves. And the same exact thing is happening with sports betting.

Horse-betting will become an afterthought in a few years, IMO. Even the horse racing business itself is grooming the loyal horseplayer so he could eventually become a casino or sports bettor. How else do we explain the glamor surrounding the casino players at the racetrack...while the hardcore horseplayer has to go past garbage cans in order to get to the horse-betting side of the place?

And as long as the WHALES continue whaling...there is no need for the industry to concern itself with any other demographic of player.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by craigbraddick

5. There needs to be widespread access to very simple past performances. Form figures for the last six races, a plus or a minus by the name to indicate early or late pace and a sentence or two about each horses chances. When people are ready to take it more seriously, they can start tackling the past performances and learning the nuances of them.

My son is 22 years old...and he has never expressed an interest in gambling up until now, even though he sees me betting on horses every day. But now that sports betting has kicked into high gear...my son tells me that he, and all of his friends, have opened Fan Duel accounts, and are taking advantage of the generous promotional deals that Fan Duel is offering to all their new customers. And my son gets online and finds all sorts of sports betting statistical information, including the most sophisticated kind...all for FREE. Can you imagine that? And horse racing is guarding their own statistical information as if it were some kind of "government secret".

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I'm sorry...is this a thread about ticket construction or the general state of the game? I'm confused.

That's another thing. "Inside The Pylons" wants to talk about "bet construction"...and he goes on a show where the viewers admittedly bet on horses ONCE A YEAR? What need for "proper bet construction" does the once-a-year horseplayer have?

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I'm sorry...is this a thread about ticket construction or the general state of the game? I'm confused.

Both

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

The message can be easily lost by how the messenger conveys it. Perhaps if he wasn't nasty and didn't attack people personally, he might be more well received.

The attitude conveyed is both unnecessary and counter productive to some good discussions which can be had on social media and on pace advantage on various topics including wagering strategy.

I'll give one clear example for those who may not be aware or are on Twitter much. Last month I wrote many people who attend the races do so with making a profit not being their primary goal. (The key was the word "primary.") I didn't just leave it there. I expressly added many people have as their primary motivation to attend the races things other than profit (socializing being just one example).

Never did I write their goal was to lose. Yet, ITP and others twisted those words to say I wanted people to lose. Then it got nasty because reading and critical thinking appear to have been abandoned.

I then ran a poll asking people to think about other people and vote whether a majority would be prefer to 1. Cash 4 of 8 races and make a small profit or have a small loss or 2. Bet one race and make a 100% profit. This poll had over 500 votes and came out 56% for option 2 and 44% for option 1.

The sample size was valid and the results proved my point. It was another perspective some people who bet every day or bet for profit appear unable to wrap their arms around.

I'll conclude by saying if someone doesn't like what another person writes or if it disagrees with their point of view, that should provide an opportunity to share viewpoints and in the end, agree to disagree and part peacefully. In the alternate, just leave it be.

As the late justice Antonin Scalia wrote: "I attack ideas. I don't attack people. And some very good people have some very bad ideas. And if you can't separate the two, you gotta get another day job."

I don't know about that. It seems to me that, even in today's coronavirus era...there are far better places to go and "socialize". IMO...most every person who picks up a past-performance sheet has some "profit" expectation in mind. Of course, whether this "expectation" is realistic or not is another matter.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Both

Seems like a promo thread for ITP...and you.

[Maximillion]

I listened to about half of it and it seemed to be going in the exact same direction as an earlier one I had listened to by ITP.

In that one he mentions that he no longer does the "work" and relies on the rebate and expert ticket construction....and all I can say is im jealous.