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Old 09-15-2021, 07:15 AM   #256
dilanesp
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Originally Posted by taxicab View Post
I've always felt that CD gave Baffert one chance to sleek away with minimal damage........and he dumped all over them(starting with the Sunday presser a week removed from the Derby).
Let's keep it real here,Baffert thought he was bigger than CD/Derby......his arrogance told him so.
Baffert figured he could push back at CDI,claiming he was wronged......and eventually they would go away.
In the process,Baffert hurled a lot of mud CDI's way.........thinking they wouldn't/couldn't fire back at him.
We all know Churchill has no problem mixing it up with people who get in their way......a fact that Baffert and his legal team somehow overlooked.
I'm only guessing on this one,but I think CDI's game plan was to sit chilly and wait for the right time to drill Baffert.....if it took awhile,so be it.
Just take a look at the way the wording for the 2022 Derby/Oaks is laid out,Baffert(and his owners) are screwed blue.
So Churchill got him there,and it's certainly no coincidence that they waited until right after BB big closing weekend at DMR that they released their new and improved Derby/Oaks rules and regulations.......score one for the CDI legal team.
And BTW:
Which legal team has better lawyers,and more money........The Baffert team....or the CDI team ?
In this country,how does that usually work out ?
Let's look at the scoreboard as of today.
Baffert is currently banned from the Deby/Oaks until 2024.......and he's been more or less blackballed from Deby/Oaks prep races.
So for all of Baffert's fancy legal maneuvering:
CDI......2
BB.......0
Plus:
It's obvious the KHRC is going to wait and drop the hammer on Baffert when it hurts him the most.
I have no clue when that's going to be,but I suspect they've given it plenty of thought.
And let's not forget that it looks like the NYRA hasn't taken kindly to Baffert getting in their way either........that's going to be a problem for Baffert down the road....no two ways around it.
I think after Baffert succeeded in cheating to win the TC with Justify he thought he could get away with anything.
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Old 09-15-2021, 07:17 AM   #257
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The handle at Saratoga, Del Mar and Kentucky Downs aren't so sure about that.
This is like saying because track and field does well at the Olympics, the sport is in good shape.
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Old 09-15-2021, 10:09 AM   #258
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This is like saying because track and field does well at the Olympics, the sport is in good shape.
I'm of the opinion the sport should only have about 15 tracks nationally, but no one wants to deal with the pain and politics of a consolidation like that over a few years. So it will happen over a very long period of time instead due to market forces. Those 3 tracks would certainly be our track and field.
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:01 AM   #259
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You actually have no idea what was given to Medina Spirit. The only thing you have is what the liar Bob Baffert SAYS was given to him.

And you also have no idea whether it was any sort of legitimate therapy, or purely for performance enhancement. You only know what the liar Bob Baffert SAYS on that subject.

You are saying things as fact that are credited to one source, a man who we shouldn't believe about anything. If Bob Baffert said the sun is out, I'd look up anyway.
Actually we know what the horse tested positive for and what it's used for.
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Old 09-15-2021, 11:57 AM   #260
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why do you resort to ad hominem attacks?

Its fine to say a statement is ignorant but really you do no favors to attack someone personally, certainly does not help support your arguments.
Thanks for the Forum Etiquette refresher.

I am not looking to "do no favors".
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:00 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by taxicab View Post
I've always felt that CD gave Baffert one chance to sleek away with minimal damage........and he dumped all over them(starting with the Sunday presser a week removed from the Derby).
Let's keep it real here,Baffert thought he was bigger than CD/Derby......his arrogance told him so.
Baffert figured he could push back at CDI,claiming he was wronged......and eventually they would go away.
In the process,Baffert hurled a lot of mud CDI's way.........thinking they wouldn't/couldn't fire back at him.
We all know Churchill has no problem mixing it up with people who get in their way......a fact that Baffert and his legal team somehow overlooked.
I'm only guessing on this one,but I think CDI's game plan was to sit chilly and wait for the right time to drill Baffert.....if it took awhile,so be it.
Just take a look at the way the wording for the 2022 Derby/Oaks is laid out,Baffert(and his owners) are screwed blue.
So Churchill got him there,and it's certainly no coincidence that they waited until right after BB big closing weekend at DMR that they released their new and improved Derby/Oaks rules and regulations.......score one for the CDI legal team.
And BTW:
Which legal team has better lawyers,and more money........The Baffert team....or the CDI team ?
In this country,how does that usually work out ?
Let's look at the scoreboard as of today.
Baffert is currently banned from the Deby/Oaks until 2024.......and he's been more or less blackballed from Deby/Oaks prep races.
So for all of Baffert's fancy legal maneuvering:
CDI......2
BB.......0
Plus:
It's obvious the KHRC is going to wait and drop the hammer on Baffert when it hurts him the most.
I have no clue when that's going to be,but I suspect they've given it plenty of thought.
And let's not forget that it looks like the NYRA hasn't taken kindly to Baffert getting in their way either........that's going to be a problem for Baffert down the road....no two ways around it.
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:38 PM   #262
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A few people have said that betamethasone is not a PED. It's an inflammatory/painkiller. A sore horse does not run very fast. Therefore, for that horse, betamethasone would act as a PED. It's similar to lidocaine or any other pain killer in that regard. In terms of whether Medina Spirit would have been getting a painkiller benefit from the amount in his system, according to a number of vets, most notably Dr. Mary Scollay, the amount found would have been exerting a pain killing effect. The danger of having a horse run on these types of medication is that track vets would be less likely to recognize a problem and rule the horse out of the race. The horse will be more willing to run past the point of its own safety because its body isn't telling them they have a problem. To dismiss this medication as not being a PED is inaccurate for the reasons stated above.

To those persons who say he should be innocent until proven guilty, first that's the standard in the criminal law. It's not the standard in other areas of the law, and this is an administrative law process. Even so, the standard for proving guilt by the KHRC regulations is the finding of a positive for the substance in a test and then split test. That's happened. So by the standard that he agreed to when entering a horse to race, guilt has already been determined. Everything that's happened since is a scramble to find a mitigating factor.

To those who still believe BB on ointment, there are a few reasons I'm skeptical: poppyseed bagel used to explain a positive test for morphine, salon pas explanation for lidocaine, peeing in the hay to explain another overage, and the list goes on. BB said he didn't even know what beta was even though Gamine had been found with an overage of the same substance less than a year before at the same track. There is absolutely no reason to believe anything this guy says at this point.
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Old 09-15-2021, 01:36 PM   #263
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A few people have said that betamethasone is not a PED. It's an inflammatory/painkiller. A sore horse does not run very fast. Therefore, for that horse, betamethasone would act as a PED. It's similar to lidocaine or any other pain killer in that regard. In terms of whether Medina Spirit would have been getting a painkiller benefit from the amount in his system, according to a number of vets, most notably Dr. Mary Scollay, the amount found would have been exerting a pain killing effect. The danger of having a horse run on these types of medication is that track vets would be less likely to recognize a problem and rule the horse out of the race. The horse will be more willing to run past the point of its own safety because its body isn't telling them they have a problem. To dismiss this medication as not being a PED is inaccurate for the reasons stated above.

To those persons who say he should be innocent until proven guilty, first that's the standard in the criminal law. It's not the standard in other areas of the law, and this is an administrative law process. Even so, the standard for proving guilt by the KHRC regulations is the finding of a positive for the substance in a test and then split test. That's happened. So by the standard that he agreed to when entering a horse to race, guilt has already been determined. Everything that's happened since is a scramble to find a mitigating factor.

To those who still believe BB on ointment, there are a few reasons I'm skeptical: poppyseed bagel used to explain a positive test for morphine, salon pas explanation for lidocaine, peeing in the hay to explain another overage, and the list goes on. BB said he didn't even know what beta was even though Gamine had been found with an overage of the same substance less than a year before at the same track. There is absolutely no reason to believe anything this guy says at this point.
Good points and facts, Sysonby.
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Old 09-15-2021, 02:32 PM   #264
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A few people have said that betamethasone is not a PED. It's an inflammatory/painkiller. A sore horse does not run very fast. Therefore, for that horse, betamethasone would act as a PED. It's similar to lidocaine or any other pain killer in that regard. In terms of whether Medina Spirit would have been getting a painkiller benefit from the amount in his system, according to a number of vets, most notably Dr. Mary Scollay, the amount found would have been exerting a pain killing effect. The danger of having a horse run on these types of medication is that track vets would be less likely to recognize a problem and rule the horse out of the race. The horse will be more willing to run past the point of its own safety because its body isn't telling them they have a problem. To dismiss this medication as not being a PED is inaccurate for the reasons stated above.
No one disputes the dangers of running horses on betamethasone. That's why if you get a positive in a post race test you are going to get fined and DQ'd. That's why Baffert is in this mess to begin with!!!

It's not considered a performance enhancer because its anti inflammatory properties allow the horse to run to its natural ability, not to exceed it. There's a difference and that's why some things are outright illegal and others are legal but involve fines and suspensions for post race positives.


Dr. Scollay

“In terms of effect on the horse, I don’t know,” she said. “I can’t answer that. I don’t think anybody knows”

“Can I tell you what 21 picograms does? No,” she said. “But I can tell you it is consistent with an administration into the joint at less than three days prior to a race. Philosophically, as a regulator, that would be unacceptable.”

“It’s a thinking man’s game at that point,” Scollay said. “Fourteen days is not necessarily your get-out-of-jail-free date.”

Because different horses can metabolize at slower or faster rates – depending on the size of the dose and how it’s administered – a positive test still is possible after 14 days.


https://www.courier-journal.com/stor...ses/5038258001
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Old 09-15-2021, 02:45 PM   #265
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If you will allow me some speculation, I think Medina Spirit was having a minor issue before the Derby and Baffert wanted to keep him in training instead of giving him a break and missing the Derby.

The horse won the Derby, but came back with an unlikely positive.

You can read between the lines.

After the disappointing effort in the Preakness, Baffert took him out of serious training. That was most likely to correct the problem. He was given a 1 month vacation. Baffert worked him once in June, but then took him out of serious training again for around 6 weeks. So there was clearly a problem. Then he started started working again regularly and looked good. The problem was solved.

He then returned to his Derby level form in the Share Belief unaided.
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Old 09-15-2021, 03:00 PM   #266
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In regard to the definition of ped, if it's to enable the horse to run past their ability on their best day, you are correct. If, however, it's to allow an individual horse to run past their ability given physical problems they're dealing with, then beta could well act as a ped.

Regarding whether it acted as a painkiller, if it could be seen as equivalent of an intraarticular injection given less than 72 hours earlier, which Dr. Scollay indicated, I can't see how it wouldn't be acting as such an injection is supposed to act. The KHRC guideline for having this out of the horse's system is 14 days, which I'm assuming was informed by veterinary advice.

Your suggested scenario for what happened is plausible, and actually what I've thought probably happened for some time. The fact that the amount present was the equivalent of an intra-articular injection from less than 72 hours before though is concerning. Even with variations in metabolism of the medication, this would argue that little care was taken to avoid this finding or that an extroardinarily large dose was given so that Medina Spirit could train.

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Old 09-15-2021, 04:01 PM   #267
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If you will allow me some speculation, I think Medina Spirit was having a minor issue before the Derby and Baffert wanted to keep him in training instead of giving him a break and missing the Derby.

The horse won the Derby, but came back with an unlikely positive.

You can read between the lines.

After the disappointing effort in the Preakness, Baffert took him out of serious training. That was most likely to correct the problem. He was given a 1 month vacation. Baffert worked him once in June, but then took him out of serious training again for around 6 weeks. So there was clearly a problem. Then he started started working again regularly and looked good. The problem was solved.

He then returned to his Derby level form in the Share Belief unaided.
It wasn't only unlikely if you believe his story. If you think he injected the horse too close to the race, it was actually very likely. That is also the far more likely scenario than anything to do with any cream.
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Old 09-15-2021, 04:22 PM   #268
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Old 09-15-2021, 05:35 PM   #269
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If you think he injected the horse too close to the race, it was actually very likely.
To inject the horse with an amount of the drug and during a time period that was likely to produce a positive would be career suicide. I refuse to believe he's that crazy.

But just for discussion's sake, let's assume he did inject the horse. It would make sense to do it far enough away from the race (but within the 14 days) so he had a high probability of a negative test. There has to be a big margin of safety built into that 14 days.

I'd have to think vets know the probabilities. He might have gambled and lost. Obviously, this is all speculation since I have no way of knowing.
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Old 09-15-2021, 06:06 PM   #270
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To inject the horse with an amount of the drug and during a time period that was likely to produce a positive would be career suicide. I refuse to believe he's that crazy.

But just for discussion's sake, let's assume he did inject the horse. It would make sense to do it far enough away from the race (but within the 14 days) so he had a high probability of a negative test. There has to be a big margin of safety built into that 14 days.

I'd have to think vets know the probabilities. He might have gambled and lost. Obviously, this is all speculation since I have no way of knowing.
Right. I'm certainly not saying it was 1 day, or 3 days. But it sure as heck wasn't 14 either. I've yet to see anyone say the cream would produce those kinds of levels that isn't in the Baffert camp. They probably know 90% of the time 7 days is fine, or 10. They gave it a shot and lost is my guess. But Baffert is a sore loser.
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