Religious

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But God can.

OK, I'll play along. God turned Aaron's rod into a serpent. The Bible says Pharaoh's magicians performed the same miracle. Do you believe that?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

OK, I'll play along. God turned Aaron's rod into a serpent. The Bible says Pharaoh's magicians performed the same miracle. Do you believe that?

The Bible also says that the Pharaoh's magicians turned the water into blood. Do we also believe THAT?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

OK, I'll play along. God turned Aaron's rod into a serpent. The Bible says Pharaoh's magicians performed the same miracle. Do you believe that?

Sure. This was all in God's master plan in "hardening" Pharaoh's heart. What better way than to grant the demons in hell the the same miraculous power? It was God's way of stringing Pharaoh along. Worked beautifully.

Of course, after the devil worshipers in Pharaoh's court duplicated another miracle, God slammed the door on them. The powers of hell can't do a thing unless God grants them the power.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Sure. This was all in God's master plan in "hardening" Pharaoh's heart. What better way than to grant the demons in hell the the same miraculous power? It was God's way of stringing Pharaoh along. Worked beautifully.

Of course, after the devil worshipers in Pharaoh's court duplicated another miracle, God slammed the door on them. The powers of hell can't do a thing unless God grants them the power.

God...the master manipulator.

Boxcar...do you also believe in Santa Claus?

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

God...the master manipulator.

Because that's what all-powerful deities do.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

God...the master manipulator.

What part of Prov 21:1 didn't you get? And to give the NT equal time:

2 Thess 2:11-12
11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
NASB

Boxcar...do you also believe in Santa Claus?

You're asking the wrong person. I believe ShowMe believes in a cosmic, bearded Santa. If God were Santa Claus no one would have to worry about temporal or eternal punishment.

[boxcar]

I was looking so forward to sipping on my strong hot cup of java this morning and reading your explanation of what Jesus the man's moral nature consists (and ours by extension), since he is neither good or evil, according to you. Please don't leave us all hanging. That would be a horrible Christmas gift.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I was looking so forward to sipping on my strong hot cup of java this morning.........

Try inserting in the other end. Could have a cleansing effect on your thoughts and fantasies.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...coffee-enemas/

"Seriously, coffee enemas may help relieve constipation, insomnia and cognitive problems"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Try inserting in the other end. Could have a cleansing effect on your thoughts and fantasies.

Well, I never expected you to have the Christmas spirit given you bigoted hatred for Christians but I thought you would at least still have the Hanukkah spirit.

[hcap]

Happy enema! Mr. 4957

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I thought you would at least still have the Hanukkah spirit.

Hanukkah is the celebration of the Hasmonean defeat of Jewish Hellenists and their sponsors. Perhaps the world's first Holy War.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I was looking so forward to sipping on my strong hot cup of java this morning and reading your explanation of what Jesus the man's moral nature consists (and ours by extension), since he is neither good or evil, according to you. Please don't leave us all hanging. That would be a horrible Christmas gift.

Oh, and about the "inherent" thing, what part of "is" or "are" or "am" don't you get?

If someone is a Pagan, Jewish, Christian, Islam, a free man, slave, etc, is that their nature, morally or not? Nothing about the words you cite imply or mean inherent.

As to your comment about Jesus nature by extension to us, it is framed in the wrong perspective. The Incarnation is about Divinity sharing in our human nature, not the other way around, as you suggest. Also, through the incarnation we are to share in Jesus' Divine nature, by extension.

It is not what I don't get, its about what your presuppositions don't allow you to get.

[Show Me the Wire]

Hank,

The motive for the Incarnation in traditional Christianity arises from man being created as an embodied spirit.

When I speak of traditional Christianity, I am referring to the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Latin) Churches.

Also, boxcar will disagree with the traditional teachings and start asking his wrongly framed questions to justify his presuppositions about the effect of Adam's transgressions on human nature. So I will have to ignore his framed questions to try and justify his presupposed views.

Yes, the motive for the Incarnation is that man is missing something, which he cannot repair or complete by himself. However, it is not due to the capacity to make amends for having sinned against man's creator.

The motive is the renewal of creation has been wrought by the Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning. De Incarnatione Verbi Dei, Chap. 1 , Athanasius.

Who is Athanasius? Bishop of Alexandria; Confessor and Doctor of the Church; born c. 296; died 2 May, 373. Athanasius was the greatest champion of belief on the subject of the Incarnation that the Church has ever known and in his lifetime earned the characteristic title of "Father of Orthodoxy", by which he has been distinguished ever since. New Advent Encyclopedia

Athanasius is accepted by both the East and Latin Church for writing the treatise explaining the traditional teachings about the Incarnation.

Now the question begs, why does Creation need renewal?

When the transcendent God called man into existence, as an embodied spirit

He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things—namely, a law and a place. He set them in His own paradise, and laid upon them a single prohibition. If they guarded the grace and retained the loveliness of their original innocence, then the life of paradise should be theirs, without sorrow, pain or care, and after it the assurance of immortality in heaven. But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birthright of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption.

De Incarnatione Verbi Dei, Chap. 1 , Athanasius.

A few things of importance to note. Early Christians did not believe that physical death did not exist in the earthly version of paradise. After an earhtly physical life without suffering, pain or care man would have immortality in Heaven. Salvation as used in the early Church, primarily meant the renewal of Creation, especially man's renewal to his original created state containing the Divine Spark, without corruption.

The corruption entered through man's transgression which caused man to die, die. Man would not only experience physical death, but spiritual death, the death of the Divine Spark.

Hank, I am sure you have more questions, especially since the transgression involves the terms either Original Sin or Ancestral Sin and the misconceptions involving the above-mentioned sin.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

If someone is a Pagan, Jewish, Christian, Islam, a free man, slave, etc, is that their nature, morally or not? Nothing about the words you cite imply or mean inherent.

As to your comment about Jesus nature by extension to us, it is framed in the wrong perspective. The Incarnation is about Divinity sharing in our human nature, not the other way around, as you suggest. Also, through the incarnation we are to share in Jesus' Divine nature, by extension.

It is not what I don't get, its about what your presuppositions don't allow you to get.

You're really shot through. Neither does the statement, "Joe IS a cook" a statement about the guy's nature. So what is point?

So, what is man's and Jesus' spiritual/moral nature? You think you know what man and Jesus are not (neither good or evil), so tell us what we and Jesus are by nature, if not good or evil. When YOU say that neither man or Jesus ARE good or evil, are YOU not making a statement about the nature of man and Jesus? Or in your world when you speak of good or evil, that means a person's ethnicity? But if you use the verb "are" to make a negative statement about the nature of man and Jesus, they why can't scripture use some form of the verb "be" to also make positive statements about people's nature?

Now, when you say that the various forms of the verb "be or being", e.g. am, are, is, were, etc. never mean inherently, does that apply to this text:

Isa 6:3
3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, IS the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
NASB

Is a statement being made about God's nature in the above text? Or is "holy, holy, holy" God hair color?

Everyone, did I not tell you that ShowMe would entertain us? Witness him jumping through mental hoops for us.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Hank,

The motive for the Incarnation in traditional Christianity arises from man being created as an embodied spirit.

When I speak of traditional Christianity, I am referring to the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Latin) Churches.

Also, boxcar will disagree with the traditional teachings and start asking his wrongly framed questions to justify his presuppositions about the effect of Adam's transgressions on human nature. So I will have to ignore his framed questions to try and justify his presupposed views.

Yes, the motive for the Incarnation is that man is missing something, which he cannot repair or complete by himself. However, it is not due to the capacity to make amends for having sinned against man's creator.

The motive is the renewal of creation has been wrought by the Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning. De Incarnatione Verbi Dei, Chap. 1 , Athanasius.

Who is Athanasius? Bishop of Alexandria; Confessor and Doctor of the Church; born c. 296; died 2 May, 373. Athanasius was the greatest champion of belief on the subject of the Incarnation that the Church has ever known and in his lifetime earned the characteristic title of "Father of Orthodoxy", by which he has been distinguished ever since. New Advent Encyclopedia

Athanasius is accepted by both the East and Latin Church for writing the treatise explaining the traditional teachings about the Incarnation.

Now the question begs, why does Creation need renewal?

When the transcendent God called man into existence, as an embodied spirit De Incarnatione Verbi Dei, Chap. 1 , Athanasius.

A few things of importance to note. Early Christians did not believe that physical death did not exist in the earthly version of paradise. After an earhtly physical life without suffering, pain or care man would have immortality in Heaven. Salvation as used in the early Church, primarily meant the renewal of Creation, especially man's renewal to his original created state containing the Divine Spark, without corruption.

The corruption entered through man's transgression which caused man to die, die. Man would not only experience physical death, but spiritual death, the death of the Divine Spark.

Hank, I am sure you have more questions, especially since the transgression involves the terms either Original Sin or Ancestral Sin and the misconceptions involving the above-mentioned sin.

"Corruption" of what? What was corrupted, precisely?

And where is this "divine spark" spoken of in scripture? Chapter and verse, please.

Finally, so God needs man's help with the repair job, eh? Why? God not powerful enough?

And here's a clue: Man experienced spiritual death long before the physical one.

Col 2:13-14
13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
NASB

So, unless Paul was writing to corpses, these Christians were formerly spiritually dead long before they physically died. Just an FYI.