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Old 10-12-2021, 11:54 AM   #31
boxcar
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I watched most of the video and found it somewhat interesting. Although for me, this determinism/free will question is something I stopped thinking about a long time ago. The interesting question, IMO, (for the faithful who believe in God and free will), is this:

"If God gave us free will, the ability to do anything we want, how come we HAVE to love HIM or spend our life in misery? How is it free, if we must love God to be happy?”
How does "free will" absolve us from moral culpability or responsibility? Just because we have the ability to make choices does not relieve us of our responsibility to obey the laws of our land, as an example.
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Old 10-12-2021, 12:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Redboard View Post
I watched most of the video and found it somewhat interesting. Although for me, this determinism/free will question is something I stopped thinking about a long time ago. The interesting question, IMO, (for the faithful who believe in God and free will), is this:

"If God gave us free will, the ability to do anything we want, how come we HAVE to love HIM or spend our life in misery? How is it free, if we must love God to be happy?

You do not have to love God to be happy.
You just have to make a life that makes you happy.
It is the bible thumpers of the world who think it is a His-way-or-the-highway sort of deal. Typically, the bible thumpers also feel that if they screw up, God will cause the roof to cave in.

I can tell you firsthand, that's just not how it works.
(I've screwed up plenty.)

Ultimately, life is whatever we CHOOSE to make of it.
Period.

My outlook is far different than yours because, when I was drawn to Christ 25 years ago, I was gifted with amazing mentorship, which resulted in amazing understanding.

In turn, this resulted in amazing changes in my life.

To be clear, it is not something that I attained to; not something I earned. I simply TRUSTED. A little at first, and, when I saw positive results, I trusted a little more, which led to even more change.

Surprisingly, the initial changes were actually external and quite negative, but eventually life became more than I could have ever imagined. Both inside and out.

As I often say, "There is no jet in my driveway," but life is very, very good.

So, when did I give up free will?
Never.
In so many ways, I wish I could, because clearly my life goes far better when God runs things. But being human, I crave control, and when I take control, things often go south.

I'm not a bible-thumpy guy, but this passage - one of like 3 I know LOL - defines the biggest challenge in my life:
Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
I doubt this really addressed YOUR question, as I doubt that you really expected an answer. But I felt compelled to write it.

BTW, there is a quote in the bible somewhere - never do remember those locations - LOL - that tells us God wants to give us the desires of our heart.

Who wouldn't want to sign up for that?
But, as I heard a pastor say about 20 years ago, "It's not a stock market-thing."


Dave

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 10-12-2021 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 10-12-2021, 12:34 PM   #33
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You do not have to love God to be happy.
You just have to make a life that makes you happy.
So then...God is not the ultimate answer for personal fulfillment or personal happiness? We can find these things in the treasures of the world, rather than in the treasures of heaven?

Do you remember how Jesus answered an expert in the Law when he asked Jesus, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Do you recall Jesus' answer?
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:15 PM   #34
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The question is, "Does one conform to God's image, or conform God to one's own image"?
Neither. If you have an "image" of God that you follow, that is you following your image, not God. This image applies to new age and Bible thumpers alike. Both are constructs of the ego.

No disrespect, but from your questions it is clear to me you take a philosophical approach to God which I did at one point too. The problem is God is not very useful as a philosophy except in philosophical debate about God. Doesn't do anything to quench that thirst within.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:16 PM   #35
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"Happiness" varies with the individual. Some find it while on the "inward" path...while others find it in our world's material offerings. The monk wouldn't be "happy" living in a mansion...and a billionaire wouldn't choose to live in a monastery.

IMO, we are all entitled to define "happiness" in our own way...and we should leave each other alone. It's folly to think that we know how the "other person" can be 'happy'.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:17 PM   #36
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No, sadly, the vast majority of the human race is a child of the Serpent. Even your "best friend" would agree with me.

Secondly, God created all things -- visible and invisible. He is the only Eternal One. God alone is the Great I AM!
Ummm I believe you just contradicted yourself.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
You do not have to love God to be happy.
You just have to make a life that makes you happy.
It is the bible thumpers of the world who think it is a His-way-or-the-highway sort of deal. Typically, the bible thumpers also feel that if they screw up, God will cause the roof to cave in.

I can tell you firsthand, that's just not how it works.
(I've screwed up plenty.)

Ultimately, life is whatever we CHOOSE to make of it.
Period.

My outlook is far different than yours because, when I was drawn to Christ 25 years ago, I was gifted with amazing mentorship, which resulted in amazing understanding.

In turn, this resulted in amazing changes in my life.

To be clear, it is not something that I attained to; not something I earned. I simply TRUSTED. A little at first, and, when I saw positive results, I trusted a little more, which led to even more change.

Surprisingly, the initial changes were actually external and quite negative, but eventually life became more than I could have ever imagined. Both inside and out.

As I often say, "There is no jet in my driveway," but life is very, very good.

So, when did I give up free will?
Never.
In so many ways, I wish I could, because clearly my life goes far better when God runs things. But being human, I crave control, and when I take control, things often go south.

I'm not a bible-thumpy guy, but this passage - one of like 3 I know LOL - defines the biggest challenge in my life:
Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
I doubt this really addressed YOUR question, as I doubt that you really expected an answer. But I felt compelled to write it.

BTW, there is a quote in the bible somewhere - never do remember those locations - LOL - that tells us God wants to give us the desires of our heart.

Who wouldn't want to sign up for that?
But, as I heard a pastor say about 20 years ago, "It's not a stock market-thing."


Dave
Totally agree.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:22 PM   #38
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Ummm I believe you just contradicted yourself.

I believe you're wrong.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:25 PM   #39
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"Happiness" varies with the individual. Some find it while on the "inward" path...while others find it in our world's material offerings. The monk wouldn't be "happy" living in a mansion...and a billionaire wouldn't choose to live in a monastery.

IMO, we are all entitled to define "happiness" in our own way...and we should leave each other alone. It's folly to think that we know how the "other person" can be 'happy'.
Actually, we're all responsible to the King of kings and Lord of lords who created us. How do you get entitlement out of our moral responsibility to our Creator?
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:28 PM   #40
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Totally agree.
Of course you do. God is as clueless as Jesus and doesn't know what is best for those he created. Happiness lies in the eyes of the beholder. How original.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:37 PM   #41
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Of course you do. God is as clueless as Jesus and doesn't know what is best for those he created. Happiness lies in the eyes of the beholder. How original.
Clearly you are jealous of anyone who does have a real experience of God by slandering them.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:38 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Redboard View Post
I watched most of the video and found it somewhat interesting. Although for me, this determinism/free will question is something I stopped thinking about a long time ago. The interesting question, IMO, (for the faithful who believe in God and free will), is this:

"If God gave us free will, the ability to do anything we want, how come we HAVE to love HIM or spend our life in misery? How is it free, if we must love God to be happy?”
In philosophical Essentialism, a thing's nature determines what is best for it. Assuming God and free will as in your second paragraph, man is made for God and frustrates the ends of his being created, causing "misery" by misusing his free will against God.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:38 PM   #43
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Actually, we're all responsible to the King of kings and Lord of lords who created us. How do you get entitlement out of our moral responsibility to our Creator?
The only "creators" to whom I acknowledge a responsibility are the two people who gave birth to me, and who raised me through much struggle and sacrifice. And, since this does not conflict with anyone else's beliefs or "responsibilities"...I think I will continue believing as I now do. To each his own...
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:45 PM   #44
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Neither. If you have an "image" of God that you follow, that is you following your image, not God. This image applies to new age and Bible thumpers alike. Both are constructs of the ego.

No disrespect, but from your questions it is clear to me you take a philosophical approach to God which I did at one point too. The problem is God is not very useful as a philosophy except in philosophical debate about God. Doesn't do anything to quench that thirst within.
You are immersed in Individualism and Subjectivism. Those are philosophical positions. You still "take a philosophical approach to God".
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:55 PM   #45
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To me, "Free Will" is a philosophical debate...not a religious one. Does man really choose what he really wants...or are his choices restricted by the preconditioning that he is exposed to in life?
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