Free will is an illusion

[46zilzal]

I knew of him.

Jesús María Rojas Alou (born March 24, 1942) is a Dominican former professional baseball outfielder. During a 15-year Major League Baseball (MLB) career, he played for the San Francisco Giants (1963–68), Houston Astros (1969–73; 1978–79), Oakland Athletics (1973–74), and New York Mets (1975). He was the youngest of the trio of baseball-playing brothers that included Felipe and Matty.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Jesus spoke in such a manner to his direct companions. It's one thing to believe the words of someone who is performing miracles right in front of you. But believing the hearsay about the same man 2,000 years hence is an entirely different matter.

Actually, you're wrong about that. As usual, you ignore the context of the passage. He was speaking to a multitude of people (Jn 12:29, 34).

And most of the people to whom he was crying out (Jn 12:44) [in a loud voice] did not believe in him or in his miracles (Jn 12:37).

Any other great insights you have for us?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

I'm your huckleberry.

Hand waving vehemently.

You had better listen to The Prophet, otherwise your Maker will require it of you (Deut 18:19-20; Mk 9:7).

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Actually, you're wrong about that. As usual, you ignore the context of the passage. He was speaking to a multitude of people (Jn 12:29, 34).

And most of the people to whom he was crying out (Jn 12:44) [in a loud voice] did not believe in him or in his miracles (Jn 12:37).

Any other great insights you have for us?

Boxcar...sharing my insight with you is akin to "casting pearls before swine".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Boxcar...sharing my misinformation with you is akin to "casting bird turds before the wise".

FTFY.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I keep watching the convoluted religious debate between you and dnlgfnk...and I ask myself: "When did Christianity get so complicated? Didn't it all start with a carpenter's son preaching to a bunch of illiterate fishermen?"

I retreated because it veered from the OP, and because Christianity did not originate in the 16th century. Any commentary Box could provide, and the principal of sola scriptura itself, I had already weighed long ago.

But Christianity gets complicated where life gets complicated. It can be as "simple" as the Athanasian Creed, as G.K. Chesterton stated, or as difficult as alternatives purport life to be...

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Esoteric+...f=nb_sb_noss_2

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

I retreated because it veered from the OP, and because Christianity did not originate in the 16th century. Any commentary Box could provide, and the principal of sola scriptura itself, I had already weighed long ago.

But Christianity gets complicated where life gets complicated. It can be as "simple" as the Athanasian Creed, as G.K. Chesterton stated, or as difficult as alternatives purport life to be...

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Esoteric+...f=nb_sb_noss_2

How can the immutable, infallible, eternal, infinitely wise Word of God, which stands in sharp contrast to the always changing, very fallible, confusing ways of the world ever be complicated?

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How can the immutable, infallible, eternal, infinitely wise Word of God, which stands in sharp contrast to the always changing, very fallible, confusing ways of the world ever be complicated?

I'm going to assume you're being sincere. Even in your truncated bible, there are 66 books devoted to the message that "God is Love" (1 Jn 4:8), and that man's destiny is to share in the life of the Trinity (2 Pt 1:4) as adopted sons and daughters through grace (Gal 4:6).

Every successive doctrine was essentially the response to a question, wrestled with and defined sometimes for more than one century. The divinity of Christ wasn't officially articulated until Nicaea (325AD).

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, you can't be too enamored with Jesus' words either, right? I mean they're just words, right!?

It's the MEANING behind his words that Jesus wants you to experience. Not the words themselves. Nor does Jesus want you to beat people over the head with his words.

Originally Posted by boxcar

As far as your "love, love, love" goes, Jesus said in real down to earth words that anyone who loves Him will keep his commandments.

I have no problem with that. You do. Jesus is my teacher,

The reason why you can't relate to my experiences with God and Jesus is because my experiences with God and Jesus are in the here and now. Not from 2000 years ago.

If you are not experiencing God while you are alive and are waiting till after you die you are wasting time and missing out on your own spiritual development which is why we are here in the first place.

When you die,you will not remember any of this b.s. you spout here,nor will it matter. The only thing you will take to the other side will be love. Love is the "currency" or "power" on the other side. In this world it's money.

This is what God or Jesus will ask you in the afterlife: Where is your love? Not what does it say in the Bible, but what does it say in your heart.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

It's the MEANING behind his words that Jesus wants you to experience. Not the words themselves. Nor does Jesus want you to beat people over the head with his words.



I have no problem with that. You do. Jesus is my teacher,

The reason why you can't relate to my experiences with God and Jesus is because my experiences with God and Jesus are in the here and now. Not from 2000 years ago.

If you are not experiencing God while you are alive and are waiting till after you die you are wasting time and missing out on your own spiritual development which is why we are here in the first place.

When you die,you will not remember any of this b.s. you spout here,nor will it matter. The only thing you will take to the other side will be love. Love is the "currency" or "power" on the other side. In this world it's money.

This is what God or Jesus will ask you in the afterlife: Where is your love? Not what does it say in the Bible, but what does it say in your heart.

Jesus is your teacher? When did that happen? I thought Buddha and other Eastern gurus were your teachers? So...how many spiritual teachers do you have?

Oh...it's all about the "MEANING", heh? What do you think Jesus meant when he said, I am the Way, the Life and the Truth. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him (Jn 14:6,7).

And can you give me chapter and verse on "Nor does Jesus want you to beat people over the head with his words"?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

I'm going to assume you're being sincere. Even in your truncated bible, there are 66 books devoted to the message that "God is Love" (1 Jn 4:8), and that man's destiny is to share in the life of the Trinity (2 Pt 1:4) as adopted sons and daughters through grace (Gal 4:6).

Every successive doctrine was essentially the response to a question, wrestled with and defined sometimes for more than one century. The divinity of Christ wasn't officially articulated until Nicaea (325AD).

Hmmm...My "truncated" bible has a different theme, thank you. His name is Jesus, and Jesus encompasses more than God's love. And not all mankind's destiny is to share in the "life in the Trinity". Many have been predestined to eternal destruction. Judas comes immediately to mind.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hmmm...My "truncated" bible has a different theme, thank you. His name is Jesus, and Jesus encompasses more than God's love. And not all mankind's destiny is to share in the "life in the Trinity". Many have been predestined to eternal destruction. Judas comes immediately to mind.

Many have been predestined to eternal destruction...but the inevitable fate which awaits them is still their fault.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Many have been predestined to eternal destruction...but the inevitable fate which awaits them is still their fault.

If God predestined all sinners to hell for their sin, providing no salvific remedy to any, would he be unjust? If so, how?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If God predestined all sinners to hell for their sin, providing no salvific remedy to any, would he be unjust? If so, how?

If all sinners go to hell for their sins, then this is justice. But when a sinner like you is predestined for heaven, while a sinner like me is predestined for hell...then this is obviously a gross injustice. Even a mentally-challenged person like you should realize that.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If all sinners go to hell for their sins, then this is justice. But when a sinner like you is predestined for heaven, while a sinner like me is predestined for hell...then this is obviously a gross injustice. Even a mentally-challenged person like you should realize that.

Launching an ad hominem attack against me is not a reason. Why must God sentence all sinners to hell -- or by implication declare all sinners innocent and send them all to heaven? Why must it be all or nothing? You must give a rational, coherent explanation for why God would be unjust unless it's an all or nothing deal one way or the other.