training and vet bills

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by matthewsiv

I believe that it is between $70 to a $90 a day in New York.

But the prize money is that much better ,if you can win.

I used to race in Florida,moved up to Aqueduct in May and onto New Jersey,Philadelphia Park at the moment.

It is easy to make cracks at owners,but the old saying in racing is as follows

YOU TREAT OWNERS LIKE MUSHROOMS
FEED THEM SHIT
AND KEEP THEM IN THE DARK

This is a corrupt industry from the foal until the death of the horse.

The owners are the only ones not making any money.

Lamboguy deserves some respect

Try $75 to $125 and then the vitamins are $3 a day and the extras all add up. You need to make sure that the trainer is even near your horse he may be at Gulfstream or Palm Meadows and has an assistant taking care of your horses. As far as the purse monies go Philly has some very good ones thats why everyone is trying to get stall space there.

[Endsweep24]

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

This is what is killing this business,Trainers who have huge stables leading owners down the garden path.help is trained what to say or not to say,Bad help adminstering drugs and trainers lying thu their teeth.I had a agent come to my barn the other day and was surprised he found me in the shed instead of talking to me in front of the horse I was doing up.Hands on trainers will give you a better bang for your buck and lesser bills.LOTS of trainers are not even at the barn when the vet gives the required shots that are slated for that horse. In my opinion Im sure a lot of horses dont get the shots and the owners are still billed for it. Owners who do have their horses with a big stable need to be aware!!...Sure the trainer may win races but he is in the numbers game .

Your point is well takin BUT don't but all of us involved with large stables all in one basket. I am in Ocala Fl and deal with 100 or more horses everyday. There is not a shot given, an xray taken or anything else done to a horse without me being there. I have 60 in training right now and I see every leg.
I have a very good relationship with all or owners and My phone is always on.
Our operation has been very successful over the years. ANd Hopefully in the future it will stay that way

[westny]

Originally Posted by supercap

Let me get this straight , You pay 50k a year to keep a horse in NY?? I hope they put doughnuts out for you in the morning!

I quoted John Perotta, a trainer and syndicate principal. He was on At The Races and 50K is the figure he said costs to stable a horse in NY...all inclusive but excluding any serious injury or illness.

[supercap]

That is a total ripoff, That is people taking advantage of clueless owners!

[ralph_the_cat]

In WV/PA $4 for Alfalfa at 7 per month, $3 for timothy at 7 per month, $4 for straw at about 12 a month... and $6 sacks of feed for $14 a month....
that $28 for alfalfa, $21 for timothy, $48 for straw, $84 for feed =$181 throw on $20 for a month of electrolytes and another $100 for any extras like red cell, vit-e, or maybe just cortaflex... your talkn maybe $300 in your normal eat, poop and feel good fees...
throw...
$10 for a morning gallop, at any where from 4-15 times a month... depending on whether its a cheap sore claimer or a young horse that needs to get out a bunch... so you're lookn at about $350-$450 a month it costs us... thats roughly $12-$15 a day.... in actual normal costs, everything else depends on how much work your trainer does... throw in $200 in vet bills a month for $20 Lasix, one shot of $55 adequan the night before a race, and then a hundred in cleunbuterol and maybe a shot or two of some other stuff... a shoe bill for $80, Im sitting on about $600 a month because I do all my own work... so if they run for 7 months out of the year, they only have to make $4,200 to break even, anything extra goes towards their cheap layoff cost and then of course in my pocket... I have to laugh and then almost cry when I see owners in the same race paying $50 a day with $400 vet bills and $100 shoeing bills, and then they have to give up 10-20% if they run ITM... lol, I dont know how some of you guys do it... thats what?... $2,000 a month! in a sport were it should only cost $600 a month if you do the work yourself...you pay $1,400 extra to have some guy do it for you... I feel bad for you guys... I really do... I always said anything more than charging an owner $1,500 doesnt make any sense, I think a $1,000 in day rates and another $500 to cover vet bills, shoeing and any short transportation fees are legit... anything over that, and your money would be better off somewhere else, i dont care what the trainers excuse is, like, we have lots of workers, etc etc.... If thats the case, that doesnt mean its OK> go else where... If an owner paid me $50 a day not including the vet, shoe etc, I could pay for his horse to run($600), and also pay my ($900) mortgage... if I did all the work myself, on one stink horse! which is practical... that just doesnt seem right... does it?...

Its pretty funny actually, there was a local owner that had some success with one trainer for maybe 10 years or so, he knew everything about racing, but had no horsemenship skills... him and his trainer finally had it out, and they split... so the owner hired a no name trainer with no horses but maybe a 50-1 shot running for $4k over at TDN... he put the horses he had in this poor trainers name and had him saddle them in the paddock, he hired the 2 grooms he had working for the other trainer to work for him since they knew everything about the other trainer and were actually the ones that DID the work... the grooms were key because they learned so much off the owners original trainer, he ran his entire operation just reading the condition books and making good claims etc... the grooms knew how to train the horses, and the trainer just got the vet when his horses were sore, the new trainer had no decision making power, it was all the owner, they were winning at 15% with about 10 head of horses... individually, everyone on this guys "team" had little talent in the business, but put them all together and they all had one job they were good at and got the job down, rumor had it the owner was just giving the "trainer" a place to live and food to eat... the owner has since moved to another track and rumor has it he finally took a trainers test... now Im not saying some of you owners should do that at all... 99 out of a hundred times the idea would fail, you pay your trainers because they are good at what they do, I just always thought it was an interesting situation that worked out for the owner, He was a GREAT owner that new the racing business more than most trainers, he could be successful with your average 10% trainer... he just couldnt stand his trainer and his bs... he saw all his trainer was doing was sip'n coffee standing at the rail knowing his experienced grooms had the work all taken care of back at the barn, the owner saw that, and said shit, I could do this... but let me tell you, the 2 year old training thing is an entirely different story, this guy just worked with claimers...

[supercap]

I am sure you have endeared yourself to trainers out there. I totally agree with your assesment. The typical" I break even at 75$ , I am making no money" hopefully won't cut it anymore.. Thanks for the breakdown

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by westny

I quoted John Perotta, a trainer and syndicate principal. He was on At The Races and 50K is the figure he said costs to stable a horse in NY...all inclusive but excluding any serious injury or illness.

You throw out a figure for the yearly cost yet your breakdown is as weak as the economy right now. What does the 50k include. Lets break it down on an allowance horse I had last year with the inner track training champion. $85 a day basic training, $135 per month medical/supplements, $150 blacksmith and shoes,$100 dentist, $30 gastro guard $25 race day expense x2. Lets add this up....$3015 per month x 12=$36,180.00 Now you mentioned 50k that may have included shipping the horse cross country to a major stakes race or any of 100 other things that were done to the horse. I would guess the trainer got around $125 a day so now add another 14k to the bill and you get 50k a year. Again my figures are based on the leading inner track trainer last year at Aqueduct. Another factor that many owners face is the inability for lower level claimers to be profitable in NY, and thus these horses get sent to tracks like Penn and Mountaineer due to the major cost difference in trainers. As mentioned earlier in this thread some trainers may train for as low as $30 a day at these tracks.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally Posted by Endsweep24

Your point is well takin BUT don't but all of us involved with large stables all in one basket. I am in Ocala Fl and deal with 100 or more horses everyday. There is not a shot given, an xray taken or anything else done to a horse without me being there. I have 60 in training right now and I see every leg.
I have a very good relationship with all or owners and My phone is always on.
Our operation has been very successful over the years. ANd Hopefully in the future it will stay that way

Thankyou sir,You are a exception to the rule,Im sure your very tired when the day is done,My hat is off to you,Would love to meet you..You sound like me...Old School

[ralph_the_cat]

Originally Posted by onefast99

You throw out a figure for the yearly cost yet your breakdown is as weak as the economy right now. What does the 50k include. Lets break it down on an allowance horse I had last year with the inner track training champion. $85 a day basic training, $135 per month medical/supplements, $150 blacksmith and shoes,$100 dentist, $30 gastro guard $25 race day expense x2. Lets add this up....$3015 per month x 12=$36,180.00 Now you mentioned 50k that may have included shipping the horse cross country to a major stakes race or any of 100 other things that were done to the horse. I would guess the trainer got around $125 a day so now add another 14k to the bill and you get 50k a year. Again my figures are based on the leading inner track trainer last year at Aqueduct. Another factor that many owners face is the inability for lower level claimers to be profitable in NY, and thus these horses get sent to tracks like Penn and Mountaineer due to the major cost difference in trainers. As mentioned earlier in this thread some trainers may train for as low as $30 a day at these tracks.

now I know where Im screwn'n up!... I dont spend $100 a month in dentist work!... Never knew a horse to need that much dentist work... I spend a $100 once a year, and might have him looked at twice a year... I had one particular horse for 3 years, made $70k running cheap claimers, and never had his teeth done once, he didnt need it, some vets just run a file across their teeth for 30 seconds and charge $100 and the horse didnt even need it... dont take my post the wrong way, Im just saying... unless you know the horse and trust your trainer a bunch, not to mention the vet... that $100 kinda sounds totally uncalled for... $1,200 a year in Dentists work, Ill add that to the "Holy crap you're getting screwed list"... of course a 2yo might need tak'n care of 3 or 4 times throught out his 2yo season, but older horses dont need that much IMO...

[westny]

Originally Posted by onefast99

You throw out a figure for the yearly cost yet your breakdown is as weak as the economy right now. What does the 50k include. .

I quoted 50k as THE FIGURE STATED BY AN INDUSTRY PROFESSIONAL owner, trainer,breeder, syndicate manager when asked the question by a listener "how much to stable a horse in NY. Can YOU READ?

He did not breakdown the costs but stated.,50k... day rate, farrier, teeth, vets, entry fees, transportation, workout charges, pony to the track, etc. everything EXCEPT..costs for disease or serious injury.

I can't debate your figures, only QUOTE a recognized trainer,owner,breeder. syndicate manager.

[lamboguy]

i am going to take westy's advice. you see i am not as classy a guy as him. so i realise that my kind don't belong in new york, and i have no right to complain how much the trainers and vets charge, because i should't be there to begin with. only guys that pay trainers $50,000 a year should be allowed there. it hurts the image of the sport when regular people like myself don't pay that much. you can see by the attendance in new york that they don't need any more people in the place!

thanks westy for hipping me up to my problem in life paying for these trainers and vets.

[john del riccio]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.

thats why the game is doomed.

john

[john del riccio]

Originally Posted by onefast99

I would say both of my new trainers are very good people. But the one I had years back lied so much he face must of hurt . I want to write a book on the 100 reasons why certain horses I had with him couldnt win.

Why do you think they called him pinnochio Brian ?

John

[lamboguy]

there is only one guy that i knew that had the pinnochio ncikname. are they the initials GC?

[Achilles]

Congrats to onefast99, ralph the cat and lamboguy for what is the most informative thread I may have ever read here. It should be compulsory reading for anyone who ever wants to get involved in this game as an owner or partnership member.

Thank you again gentlemen...........Jack