Religion III

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I read everything...but I believe NOTHING until I test it out on my own. If its "Truth" resonates with me, then I adopt it...and if it doesn't, then I leave the teaching alone. And this applies to the Bible...the Hindu Vedas, the Buddha Dharma...and the Gurdjieff "Work". Yes...I find much that I agree with in the Gurdjieff teaching. But I also have disagreements with it. I take from it what I find useful...and leave the rest for those who find it more useful for themselves.

I don't believe that "God is a butcher". I believe that mainstream Christianity's version of a "God" doesn't EXIST. And...I don't believe in the "divinity" of the bible. I think the bible is just a series of stories written by some ancient Jewish nomads...where they've declared themselves "God's Chosen People". When I mention the pain and suffering so rampant in our world, it isn't because I am trying to paint God as a "butcher". To me..."Father-God" is BLAMELESS...because he doesn't EXIST! I bring up all the world's suffering so I can understand what the "Believers" mean when they say "ever-loving God". I have seen you repeatedly state here that "God is only Love". You talked about how fond you are of the teaching of Neville Goddard. I had Goddard's books sitting on my bookshelf for years...and I picked one up and started reading it again a few weeks ago. Goddard says that "God is our own Imagination". Neville Goddard calls himself a "Christian"...even though his version of God differs from 99% of the other "Christians". Do you see how different the "Christians" are in their God-beliefs? That's why I ask the God-questions that I do. It isn't because I think God is a "butcher", or that I take the bible literally. It's because I am trying to distinguish one Christian from another. Christianity comes in many different flavors, you know.

I have no issue with what you say here.

So when you did complain that God allowed 21K kids to die, you were playing "devil's advocate" to see my reaction? You don't really blame God for those kids deaths?

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I grew up in the most "Christian" country in the world. The Christian dogma has been taught to my since my infancy...and I believed it wholeheartedly up until a certain point. You shouldn't compare me to your lady friend who thought that God was a "Geanie"...because you don't know what "dire circumstances" I was talking about in my post.

"All I know is that when I pray to God, I get help and that's why I believe in the existence and love of God"...you said in a previous post. It's only NOW that you say..."I certainly do not get all my prayers answered every time". In that prior post...you phrased things differently. If you believe in God because he answers your prayers...why should I believe in him if my prayers are ignored? Did I tell you that my prayers had a "time limit"? Why did my post remind you of the Geanie lady? How prompt is God in answering YOUR prayers?

Actually I believe I do know what you were praying to God for. The woman I was talking about was praying for her mothers life. I believe your situation was similar. A life and death situation.

I have prayed to God and because I did not receive any help was on the verge of suicide. Long story. Should I have rejected God right there and then?

I'm not saying that your story was exactly like this woman's. I'm saying it was similar in that you asked,got no answer and as a result lost faith. That's fine with me. We all do things our own way.

I'm just saying that it is presumptuous to say I prayed and got no answer to a very dire situation, therefore God doesn't exist.

What I learned from NOT being answered and on the verge of suicide is that it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR MY OWN GOOD TO NOT GRANT MY WISH. Too deep and involved to discuss here. But there are reasons beyond what we can see as to WHY our prayers are not answered sometimes. It isn't all black and white.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

I have no issue with what you say here.

So when you did complain that God allowed 21K kids to die, you were playing "devil's advocate" to see my reaction? You don't really blame God for those kids deaths?

How can I blame someone who I think doesn't exist? I am trying to find out how the "Heavenly Father" believers explain all the innocent suffering that we so often see. Boxcar says that "no one is innocent"...and that all this suffering is warranted because Adam and Eve once defiantly ate an apple. And I wanted to know what YOUR position is on this.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm just saying that it is presumptuous to say I prayed and got no answer to a very dire situation, therefore God doesn't exist.

Yes...I said that, because you said that your belief in God rests on the fact that you get help whenever you pray to him. Wasn't this comment of your equally "presumptuous"?

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How can I blame someone who I think doesn't exist? I am trying to find out how the "Heavenly Father" believers explain all the innocent suffering that we so often see. Boxcar says that "no one is innocent"...and that all this suffering is warranted because Adam and Eve once defiantly ate an apple. And I wanted to know what YOUR position is on this.

My relationship with God has nothing to do with the Bible or the Church. I was raised Catholic and went to church on Sunday's. But when I turned 14 in 1969 and the summer of love, everyone was questioning the existence of God. I started reading all the philosophers and classic writers and gave up my belief in God.

When I was 20 I turned to meditation. I was not religious but interested in spirituality. Meditation was a huge struggle but embarrassing because I realized It's only me exploring me beyond my everyday thoughts. Why can't I do it?

As I began to achieve some progress in meditation, the Sufi saying started coming true. "I searched for myself and found God". I am now on the 2nd half of that saying."I searched for God and found myself".

I don't need a middleman to tell me about God or who I am. Its an ongoing internal relationship without fantasies of what happened 2000 years ago. I exist now, and what happened back then is nice to read about such as Adam and Eve. You can debate it all you want but it won't do a thing for you if its proved real or imaginary. You still need that internal thirst satisfied. There is nothing in this world that can satisfy it. Materialism is nice but does not hit the mark. I can have all the hot women, all the money, be the best handicapper you ever saw. That does not satisfy that internal thirst within me. But in meditation, if i feel that divine love, and its not all the time, I am satisfied. Even if I can feel it for 2 seconds its huge. I can only believe what I am feeling is God's Love according to what Jesus and all the spiritual sages have said throughout history.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...I said that, because you said that your belief in God rests on the fact that you get help whenever you pray to him. Wasn't this comment of your equally "presumptuous"?

To clarify, I would say that I have received "God's help" on many occasions when I pray to God for help. Some of the incidents could be described as miraculous.

I'll give you a recent example. Happened about a year ago. I have 2 grown kids. My son still lives with me. He's 34. I have some slight psychic abilities, he has more. We have some communication with spirits sporadically. Not important right now.Let me get to the point.

About a year ago my son heard the spirits telling him to "pray for me" in an urgent way, NOW. He was asking them why because I seemed alright but no response. I had no knowledge of this until after the incident I am about to tell you.

I was coming out of a side street with my car onto a major avenue. Normally very busy. To my surprise it was pretty clear except for one car coming up the block. I thought, I'll just accelerate to beat him. I did not see that there was a woman in the intersection and I was on a direct collision course with her. It looked clear to me. As I accelerated to beat this car, a very strange wave came over me,a strange fuzzy feeling which led me to slam on the brakes. The woman in the intersection hopped in the air as I was literally inches from her as she cursed me. My mouth was open. How the hell did i stop when I never even knew she was in the intersection until I saw her cursing at me. When I told my son what happened its then that he understood why the spirits were frantically trying to get him to pray for me. If I had killed her I would have been devastated for years. Its clear to me that that weird feeling that came over me was divine intervention. I never experienced that feeling before or after.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Jesus wasn't speaking your rubbish. He was giving his disciples a prophecy about when the end of the Jewish Age would take place.

Learn how to read, Humpty.

Here's another time honored truth: A text without context is a pretext.

Try to think out of your box, box. The "real self" is a concept that existed before Christ's teaching, which you unfortunately take only literally. Cutting you off from the deeper significance of that teaching.

The story is a metaphor characterizing our state of being, and more importantly, NON-BEING. It is a story told by G.I.Gurdjieff and described by his pupil P.D. Ouspensky in "In Search of the Miraculous" And other books about their "work"
https://www.amazon.com/Search-Miracu.../dp/0156007460

The "Fourth Way" is their teaching.

https://peterszaszmemorial.com/the-p...age-and-driver

The Horse, Carriage and Driver is a very ancient tale of unknown origin, brought to the West by Gurdjieff.

"The equipage in its entirety presents us with a picture of Man. In it, the Horse represents the function of feelings, emotions. The Carriage stands for the body, and the Coachman is what we usually call our ‘conscious or ‘thought’.

The passengers of the carriage are represented by the multitude of characters in the painting, some quite strange and even quite unknown to each other. This is the image of our fragmented selves who can and do enter the carriage one after another and order it this way or that.

The arrival of the Master, or what might be called a unified Self, or ‘I’, can only be the result of many years’ of exacting inner work."

Some would call that self divine, or our gateway to God. Pretty much what Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Muhammad and other great teachers have suggested. All great religions point to the same thing.

This tale is a schematic. One metaphor among many.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Try to think out of your box, box. The "real self" is a concept that existed before Christ's teaching, which you unfortunately take only literally. Cutting you off from the deeper significance of that teaching.

"Unfortunately" nothing! Fortunately, God taught me to understand scripture in its CONTEXT, which is the only honest way of truly understanding any given text. So whenever the
se;f" concept existed is irrelevant! What is relevant is that Jesus didn't teach it in Mark 13, as you're trying to con us into believing.

[boxcar]

Oh...by the ways, guys, if you really want to know what [your]self is really like, just meditate on these two passages:

Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
NASB

And,

Mark 7:21-23
21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"
NIV

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

"Unfortunately" nothing! Fortunately, God taught me to understand scripture in its CONTEXT, which is the only honest way of truly understanding any given text. So whenever the
se;f" concept existed is irrelevant! What is relevant is that Jesus didn't teach it in Mark 13, as you're trying to con us into believing.

Funny you should mention "context". Since your world view is limited to the context of no other religious studies, no science, math, engineering , literature, or philosophies beyond what you can see as far as your nose.

You asked Light about "real self". Her gave you a rather accurate personal description.

I gave you a more historical, psycho-spiritual and perhaps esoteric description.
As I commented, you won't allow anything outside your biblical narrow box, and larger than literal.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Funny you should mention "context". Since your world view is limited to the context of no other religious studies, no science, math, engineering , literature, or philosophies beyond what you can see as far as your nose.

You asked Light about "real self". Her gave you a rather accurate personal description.

I gave you a more historical, psycho-spiritual and perhaps esoteric description.
As I commented, you won't allow anything outside your biblical narrow box, and larger than literal.

Other religions are not going to help me understand any given passage in the context of a specific book called the Bible.

As usual, you lied about what Jesus was teaching in Mark 13. You are such a wretched, miserable, pathetic, lost soul you just can't tell the truth ever, can you!? You make Slick Willy and Obama together look like paragons of truth!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

What would you or anyone want God to do to prove its existence?

It would seem to me that even if a being came here doing miracles, many people would still not believe because they would claim its a "hoax", smoke and mirrors, or maybe its an advance race of Aliens who have anti gravitational powers.

Star Trek: the Next Generation, Season 4: Episode 13, "Devil's Due"

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

... 96% of the known universe is invisible according to scientists.

Invisible only in the sense that it does not emit or reflect electromagnetic radiation. However, gravitational effects are detectable and in that sense the entire universe is visible at least as far out as the cosmological horizon.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Other religions are not going to help me understand any given passage in the context of a specific book called the Bible.

As usual, you lied about what Jesus was teaching in Mark 13. You are such a wretched, miserable, pathetic, lost soul you just can't tell the truth ever, can you!? You make Slick Willy and Obama together look like paragons of truth!

Far right lunacy AGAIN?

Why is ignorance your ideal? I thought this thread was about religion?
Calm down bunky. Besides you may get your wish. I may be banned

Before I go, I want you to know, my attempt to explain" real self" is not contrary to Jesus's teaching.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Far right lunacy AGAIN?

Why is ignorance your ideal? I thought this thread was about religion?
Calm down bunky. Besides you may get your wish. I may be banned

Before I go, I want you to know, my attempt to explain" real self" is not contrary to Jesus's teaching.

I wouldn't know about that, since you haven't posted any teaching from Jesus about the "real self".