Religion III

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

We can't prove that aliens from other planets don't exist either. Does that mean that they exist? It seems to me that the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something EXISTS.

What would you or anyone want God to do to prove its existence?

It would seem to me that even if a being came here doing miracles, many people would still not believe because they would claim its a "hoax", smoke and mirrors, or maybe its an advance race of Aliens who have anti gravitational powers.

In any case, if God came here and moved mountains, it wouldn't impress me. So what? Does nothing for me.

It's who I am that matters and why I was created and how does God fit into that equation that really matters to me. And that is within as all religions and spiritual paths say and rightly so.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

What would you or anyone want God to do to prove its existence?

It would seem to me that even if a being came here doing miracles, many people would still not believe because they would claim its a "hoax", smoke and mirrors, or maybe its an advance race of Aliens who have anti gravitational powers.

In any case, if God came here and moved mountains, it wouldn't impress me. So what? Does nothing for me.

It's who I am that matters and why I was created and how does God fit into that equation that really matters to me. And that is within as all religions and spiritual paths say and rightly so.

You are a reasonable guy...so I will give you the best answer that I am capable of:

The bullshit argument that "humanity is responsible for the world's disasters" just doesn't cut it...and it never did. The bible, in no uncertain terms, categorically states that "nothing happens unless God wishes it to"...so, we must assume that God approves of all the famine and all the illnesses that plague our world. And if we must assume this...then a further assumption must be made that God is either a heartless monster...or that he just doesn't exist at all. Faced with these two assumptions...and since I doubt the existence of a "monstrously-tyrannical God"...I must conclude that a "Heavenly Father" can't possibly exist.

And if he DOES exist...and he still allows all this pain and suffering to continue on this planet...then I want nothing to do with him. Please don't tell me again, as you did once before, that we bring all this suffering upon us through our own deeds. Because about 21,000 kids died in our world today...and I'm pretty sure that you and I had nothing to do with it.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You are a reasonable guy...so I will give you the best answer that I am capable of:

The bullshit argument that "humanity is responsible for the world's disasters" just doesn't cut it...and it never did. The bible, in no uncertain terms, categorically states that "nothing happens unless God wishes it to"...so, we must assume that God approves of all the famine and all the illnesses that plague our world. And if we must assume this...then a further assumption must be made that God is either a heartless monster...or that he just doesn't exist at all. Faced with these two assumptions...and since I doubt the existence of a "monstrously-tyrannical God"...I must conclude that a "Heavenly Father" can't possibly exist.

And if he DOES exist...and he still allows all this pain and suffering to continue on this planet...then I want nothing to do with him. Please don't tell me again, as you did once before, that we bring all this suffering upon us through our own deeds. Because about 21,000 kids died in our world today...and I'm pretty sure that you and I had nothing to do with it.

It's a bit confusing as to what you believe because on the one hand you seem to agree that the Bible is not to be taken literally. On the other hand you quote the Bible as saying "nothing happens unless God wishes it to" and then say that God must be a "monstrously-tyrannical God" to allow all this suffering. Well if you don't believe the Bible in the first place, how can you believe that God is causing all our suffering?

Point is if you believe the Bible, that all is controlled by God, then you will see God as a butcher when it comes to the 21K kids who died.

On the other hand why do you have to blame anyone? Isn't death, part of life?

I don't like it one bit either and I really don't like to experience suffering and pain in myself or in others. But I don't look at it as God's fault or that he is punishing me or anyone else. I accept that I do not understand it and that none of us understand exactly why we are born and die and suffer in between. All I know is that when I pray to God, I get help and that's why i believe in the existence and love of God.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

It's a bit confusing as to what you believe because on the one hand you seem to agree that the Bible is not to be taken literally. On the other hand you quote the Bible as saying "nothing happens unless God wishes it to" and then say that God must be a "monstrously-tyrannical God" to allow all this suffering. Well if you don't believe the Bible in the first place, how can you believe that God is causing all our suffering?

Point is if you believe the Bible, that all is controlled by God, then you will see God as a butcher when it comes to the 21K kids who died.

On the other hand why do you have to blame anyone? Isn't death, part of life?

I don't like it one bit either and I really don't like to experience suffering and pain in myself or in others. But I don't look at it as God's fault or that he is punishing me or anyone else. I accept that I do not understand it and that none of us understand exactly why we are born and die and suffer in between. All I know is that when I pray to God, I get help and that's why i believe in the existence and love of God.

If the bible isn't to be taken literally, then, what "God" are we talking about? Mainstream Christianity believes that there is a God somewhere who is "grading" our earthly existence...and that he intends to reward or punish us according to our deeds. Mainstream Christianity embraces the bible in a literal sense...and the bible clearly states that "Nothing happens on this earth unless God wishes it so". Do you not agree with that? If "nothing happens unless God wishes it so", then...how could God be kept blameless when so many innocent kids suffer on this planet? If God is as "ever-loving" as you make him out to be, then...who is responsible for all the evil and all the suffering that we see on this planet? Man? You've got to be kidding me. Is "man" supposed to cure all the sick and all the starving people of the world? Why doesn't GOD do it? Is it BENEATH him?

What am I supposed to believe? That God is "ever-loving", and "in control"...but the world is drowning in sorrow and injustice? Come on...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Light

All I know is that when I pray to God, I get help and that's why i believe in the existence and love of God.

You pray to God, and you get the help that you need...so, you believe in him. Great! But I've prayed to God too, during some very dire circumstances...and my prayers went unanswered. So...I feel justified in ignoring him as well. Did you think that I abandoned God without a reason?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I stick up for everyone when it comes to their heart and soul. But I won't stick up for your ego.

You stick up for people's hearts and soul? What does that gibberish even mean?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

What would you or anyone want God to do to prove its existence?

It would seem to me that even if a being came here doing miracles, many people would still not believe because they would claim its a "hoax", smoke and mirrors, or maybe its an advance race of Aliens who have anti gravitational powers.

In any case, if God came here and moved mountains, it wouldn't impress me. So what? Does nothing for me.

It's who I am that matters and why I was created and how does God fit into that equation that really matters to me. And that is within as all religions and spiritual paths say and rightly so.

Talk about a runaway, raging un-Christ-like ego!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You pray to God, and you get the help that you need...so, you believe in him. Great! But I've prayed to God too, during some very dire circumstances...and my prayers went unanswered. So...I feel justified in ignoring him as well. Did you think that I abandoned God without a reason?

Perhaps God "abandoned" you because your prayers were not biblical.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Perhaps God "abandoned" you because your prayers were not biblical.

How would you know who your version of god abandons and does not abandon?

Secret decoder ring?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

How would you know who your version of god abandons and does not abandon?

Secret decoder ring?

What we do know from scripture is that God loves those who love him and obey him!

We also know from scripture that God works out all things for good for those who love Him and were called by Him for his purpose.

We also know from scripture that God will give his people what they want if they pray according his will.

Nothing secret here. All these doctrines are "hiding" in plain sight in scripture.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If the bible isn't to be taken literally, then, what "God" are we talking about? Mainstream Christianity believes that there is a God somewhere who is "grading" our earthly existence...and that he intends to reward or punish us according to our deeds. Mainstream Christianity embraces the bible in a literal sense...and the bible clearly states that "Nothing happens on this earth unless God wishes it so". Do you not agree with that? If "nothing happens unless God wishes it so", then...how could God be kept blameless when so many innocent kids suffer on this planet? If God is as "ever-loving" as you make him out to be, then...who is responsible for all the evil and all the suffering that we see on this planet? Man? You've got to be kidding me. Is "man" supposed to cure all the sick and all the starving people of the world? Why doesn't GOD do it? Is it BENEATH him?

What am I supposed to believe? That God is "ever-loving", and "in control"...but the world is drowning in sorrow and injustice? Come on...

All of us repeatedly asked boxcar about the poor African child suffering and dying from a worm burrowing into her eye. A worm who's very existence depends on that survival tactic. Good for the worm, not so good for the child.

A major conundrum that has vexed Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic philosophers since time immemorial. I am just beginning to get a glimmer of a reconciliation of some of that "conundrum"

Not willing to negate the "ghost in the machine" yet. It ain't easy for any of us. Except for boxcar.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What we do know from scripture is that God loves those who love him and obey him!

We also know from scripture that God works out all things for good for those who love Him and were called by Him for his purpose.

We also know from scripture that God will give his people what they want if they pray according his will.

Nothing secret here. All these doctrines are "hiding" in plain sight in scripture.

No, we do not know. That's why these threads go on ad infinitum.
Too many unknowable's. We present our life experiences here as best as we can.

Different strokes for different folks. However it is evident you won't allow that.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You stick up for people's hearts and soul? What does that gibberish even mean?

Is it any wonder that you don't know what a heart or soul is?

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Talk about a runaway, raging un-Christ-like ego!

The "I" was was referring to is my real self, not my egoic self. You are still under the false impression that when you die you take your ego with you. You don't.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If the bible isn't to be taken literally, then, what "God" are we talking about? Mainstream Christianity believes that there is a God somewhere who is "grading" our earthly existence...and that he intends to reward or punish us according to our deeds. Mainstream Christianity embraces the bible in a literal sense...and the bible clearly states that "Nothing happens on this earth unless God wishes it so". Do you not agree with that? If "nothing happens unless God wishes it so", then...how could God be kept blameless when so many innocent kids suffer on this planet? If God is as "ever-loving" as you make him out to be, then...who is responsible for all the evil and all the suffering that we see on this planet? Man? You've got to be kidding me. Is "man" supposed to cure all the sick and all the starving people of the world? Why doesn't GOD do it? Is it BENEATH him?

What am I supposed to believe? That God is "ever-loving", and "in control"...but the world is drowning in sorrow and injustice? Come on...

I have hard time believing that you believe what you just said. I think you are more intelligent than boxcar than to take the Bible literally. Unlike boxcar you are aware of other spiritual ways and philosophies.

Gurdjieff said “Two things in life are infinite; the stupidity of man and the mercy of God.”

Well how can you like Gurdjieff so much after he contradicts you? According to you, God has no mercy and is just a butcher. According to Gurdjieff, the blame is more on man than God. So why are you listening to Gurdjieff? I agree with him. You don't?