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Old 08-09-2017, 03:05 PM   #151
classhandicapper
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I'm not sure why we are debating some of these side issues other than horse players like to argue about everything.

Keeneland raised the take.

We can either accept it or stop playing there as individuals or we can organize into a more effective force to send a message that may or may not have an impact. I think sending a message is the better choice and don't really care to debate much else other than the most effective way to send that message.

I think the best way is an organized targeted boycott. So someone has to take a leadership role and determine when, how long etc... The rest of us should be debating how to most effectively spread the word and convince people to join in so we maximize the impact.

Let's face it, these pinheads do not understand that the game is getting tougher and tougher even without an increase in the track take because so many people (especially whales) have premium information. They are getting dangerously close to the point where all the serious players that have loved both the game and sport for decades decide it's not worth the effort. Another 1 or 2 percent matters when people are already skating on thin ice in terms of their effort being worth it.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:11 PM   #152
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I'm not sure why we are debating some of these side issues other than horse players like to argue about everything.
It's a lazy Wednesday afternoon...with the typically-lousy weekday horse racing menu offered. What else is a horseplayer to do, but "argue about everything"?
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:18 PM   #153
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......If you've been paying attention to the goings-on here, Robert...then you've probably noticed that the vast majority of the members here have recently admitted that they are betting a lot less money on the horses now than they have in the past. Some have even said that they've stopped betting ALTOGETHER...after betting the horses for many years. Do you suppose that they've done this because they have found "other gambling interests" for their money? Are they frequenting the CASINOS now, since they've stopped betting as much as they did on the horses? Of course not. Without exception...they've stopped because they've been LOSING. And, if they were smart...then they stopped before they did serious damage to their financial well-being.....

I sure didn't stop because I was losing. I lost the passion and the energy to keep playing. It's hard to put in the necessary hours of preparation when it becomes work.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:24 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post

Keeneland raised the take.

We can either accept it or stop playing there as individuals or we can organize into a more effective force to send a message that may or may not have an impact. I think sending a message is the better choice and don't really care to debate much else other than the most effective way to send that message.

I think the best way is an organized targeted boycott. So someone has to take a leadership role and determine when, how long etc... The rest of us should be debating how to most effectively spread the word and convince people to join in so we maximize the impact.
I have a hard time understanding you here...is someone FORCING you to debate things that you aren't interested in here? Why are you so keen to tell us what the "rest of us" should be debating here? Can't we post about whatever we WANT...as long as we keep within the loose perimeter of the original topic?
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:29 PM   #155
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I sure didn't stop because I was losing. I lost the passion and the energy to keep playing. It's hard to put in the necessary hours of preparation when it becomes work.
Yes...I noticed that. And you developed the "passion and energy" to work on your golf game...just as Tom Brohamer decided to give up on horseracing, so he could spend more time FISHING. Horse-betting is so time-consuming...it's hard to fish or play golf while still being a horseplayer.

I understand completely.

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Old 08-09-2017, 03:45 PM   #156
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Yes...I noticed that. And you developed the "passion and energy" to work on your golf game...just as Tom Brohamer decided to give up on horseracing, so he could spend more time FISHING. Horse-betting is so time-consuming...it's hard to fish or play golf while still being a horseplayer.

I understand completely.
Actually Tom loves to play golf, too.

Throw in father and husband as well as being a horseplayer. I have always found that many serious horseplayers are not married or have families that require their time.

Clearly golf is not one of your passions. For me it is a 7 day a week endeavor.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:48 PM   #157
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HANA's website has grown stale,the latest track ratings to compare takeout etc. are from 2014:
The Pace Advantage H.A.N.A sub-forum has this:

Sticky:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=60154

which took me to the 2014 page.Thanks for providing the updated information which is available by going to the H.A.N.A site itself.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:52 PM   #158
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Actually Tom loves to play golf, too.

Throw in father and husband as well as being a horseplayer. I have always found that many serious horseplayers are not married or have families that require their time.

Clearly golf is not one of your passions. For me it is a 7 day a week endeavor.
Just yesterday...I touched a golf-club for the first time in 11 years. It will probably be another 11 years until my next contact with it.
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Old 08-09-2017, 04:24 PM   #159
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Seems like we're more focused on 'organizing' for the sake of the power dynamic than to present an irrefutable case to the Tracks, ADWs, and Shareholders.
There is no case. Lower takeout doesn't help the tracks bottom line. Higher takeout does help the tracks bottom line. There might be a case to be made about churn but that doesn't resonate with them.
The only option players have is to not bet on a product they are not getting a good deal on. No different than not betting a horse you're getting the kind of odds you want, same goes for the track in general. If enough people stop betting tracks that have high takeout, they'll either normalize or cease to exist.
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Old 08-09-2017, 04:44 PM   #160
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Maybe they want the bettors to pay for lawsuit they lost to Michael Dickinson after they tried to screw him.
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Old 08-09-2017, 04:50 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
I have a hard time understanding you here...is someone FORCING you to debate things that you aren't interested in here? Why are you so keen to tell us what the "rest of us" should be debating here? Can't we post about whatever we WANT...as long as we keep within the loose perimeter of the original topic?
You can do whatever you want.

I think it's a distraction and waste of time if anyone is actually serious about organizing an effective boycott. It looks more like another "venting" thread.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:00 PM   #162
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You can do whatever you want.

I think it's a distraction and waste of time if anyone is actually serious about organizing an effective boycott. It looks more like another "venting" thread.
Has there ever been an effective boycott that made a track change something important for the bettors?
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:11 PM   #163
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HANA Statement on the Keeneland Takeout Increase


It was announced today that long-time horseplayer friendly racetrack Keeneland has raised their takeout rates. Win wagering, which was at 16% takeout, will now be taxed at 17.5%, while all other bets will go from 19% to 22%. The pick 5 takeout, previously at 19%, will be 15%.


This fall, Keeneland’s exacta and daily double takeouts will be among the highest in North America.


In 2009, outgoing Keeneland President Nick Nicholson said, “We’re very gratified to know that our efforts to promote large, quality fields, a wide variety of wagering options and a reasonable takeout rate have been recognized….. Keeneland is enthusiastic about the future and we’re committed to getting even better.”


Keeneland, as a non-profit under the leadership of strong executives like Nick Nicholson, had always placed an emphasis on their betting customers, with an eye to the long term health of the sport. Wagering customers were considered a part of the economic engine of racing, were catered to, and always felt home at Keeneland. This, in part, spurred handle increases in a sport suffering massive handle losses. Their strategy was clearly working. Now, it appears that the new management team has gone the way of so many corporate racetracks by only looking at the short term numbers, and listening to stakeholders who yell the loudest.

"I was part of a group from HANA that spent a week visiting Keeneland back in April 2009," recalled HANA President Jeff Platt. "On the day we left Nick Nicholson presented our group with a Keeneland poster which he signed. Above his signature are the words, 'Horseplayers will always be welcome at Keeneland.' Right now I'm not sure if that's true anymore."



The Horseplayers Association of North America is extremely disappointed with the new Keeneland management's decision and will have further announcements after talking with our members.

Posted by HANA at 2:23 PM
You have to get your key facts straight. They're NOT a non-profit and haven't been for many years.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:12 PM   #164
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You can do whatever you want.

I think it's a distraction and waste of time if anyone is actually serious about organizing an effective boycott. It looks more like another "venting" thread.
Okay...I'll get serious. Let's start talking about the organization of an effective boycott.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:36 PM   #165
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I'll start by asking for horseplayer opinion.

Link to a short survey:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/WN2RCG2


Feel free to share the link with other players.



-jp

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