On the DRF's Speed Rating-Track Variant

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Another thing:

The DRF has added the new "pace-flow" indicators...to show us that they want to bring a certain "precision" to their handicapping product. But then they introduce YOUR figures in the printed edition, in a manner which makes them WORTHLESS for the discriminating player. Instead of giving their customers "TimeformUS" ratings for each individual race, they offer a mysterious SINGLE entry for every horse...which supposedly "averages" what the horse is capable of. What good is a figure "average"...when the races are already listed separately, for INDIVIDUAL study? Don't these people even know what an "upgrade" is?

I'm not asking for myself, mind you. After buying the DRF religiously for over 30 years...I've switched to something better. And I am wondering if the DRF wants the REST of their customers to do likewise...

If anything, I think you should be happy (and keep quite) for DRF to omit pace figures or any other handicapping tool you believe it adds value to your methodology.

[cj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Another thing:

The DRF has added the new "pace-flow" indicators...to show us that they want to bring a certain "precision" to their handicapping product. But then they introduce YOUR figures in the printed edition, in a manner which makes them WORTHLESS for the discriminating player. Instead of giving their customers "TimeformUS" ratings for each individual race, they offer a mysterious SINGLE entry for every horse...which supposedly "averages" what the horse is capable of. What good is a figure "average"...when the races are already listed separately, for INDIVIDUAL study? Don't these people even know what an "upgrade" is?

I'm not asking for myself, mind you. After buying the DRF religiously for over 30 years...I've switched to something better. And I am wondering if the DRF wants the REST of their customers to do likewise...

The figures from TimeformUS that are in the DRF are exactly as they appear in the regular product. They are the overall early/late speed ratings for each horse that are used to generate the Pace Projector. They are not an average but they are based on a group of races. I'm going to work on an article to better explain them this week.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

If anything, I think you should be happy (and keep quite) for DRF to omit pace figures or any other handicapping tool you believe it adds value to your methodology.

I can't think just about myself. When I see GROSS INCOMPETENCE, it's my nature to vent my frustration...even if doing so potentially hurts my "bottom line".

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I can't think just about myself. When I see GROSS INCOMPETENCE, it's my nature to vent my frustration...even if doing so potentially hurts my "bottom line".

I agree with your comment about incompetence.

I also think that one of the most fundamental problems of horse racing in Northern America lies in the lack of free historical data.

Obviously, DRF is going to face a major survival problem If raw historical data were become freely available; in parallel, the industry will become attractive to the new generations and possibly be revived and reach new highs in terms of publicity and handle sizes.

Still, I am not sure that as a bettor I would like to see something like this as chances are that the game will become much tougher and difficult to beat. Maybe it is better the way it is now!

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Here's the problem, in a nutshell:

It's a well-known fact that there is a pretty large segment of the DRF customers who insist on buying the printed edition. We must assume that the DRF acknowledges this...by the mere fact that the printed edition is still profitably produced. It's also a well-known fact that there are no PACE figures to be found in the printed edition...even though the pace figures have been proven to be a major component of the handicapping process. So...if the DRF printed-edition customer wants pace figures...he must create them HIMSELF. But, in order to do that...he needs a reliable track-variant. And he can't get a reliable track variant from the DRF...even at the cost of $11 a copy. And when he complains...he keeps hearing about that "subset of customers" who insist on using totally WORTHLESS data for their handicapping. And my question is...why doesn't the DRF give the worthless speed figures and variants to those who insist on using them, while giving the REST of the customers something more useful? Is there any doubt in the minds of the DRF employees about the worthlessness of the track variant that they currently provide to their customers? Why are they depriving the customers of something better?

1. The Timeform Early and Late pace figures were recently added to the paper. Other major improvements are on the way. You probably don't know that because you don't buy it. You just complain about it.

2. None of the major figure services provides track variants for reasons I tried to explain to you. In large part, it would be like giving away the recipe to a popular food item. It would also open a can of worms about individual figures.

3. If you buy a Formulator subscription, you can get pace figures, print out a customized hard copy of the PPs, save money, and not have to look at the DRF Speed Rating or Track Variant. They aren't in Formulator.

I'm not customer service. I try to be helpful here because I can be, because some people here have been very helpful to me, and because I like almost everyone here. You can contact customer service and ask them for more information if I'm not helpful enough.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Speaking as a customer, I don't know the answer to your question. I've been asking for information like that from figure makers for years but they seem reluctant to publish it. I guess it gives away more of the special sauce and exposes which races are broken out, which days were split etc... I guess it's a kind of can of worms when it comes to process that people are reluctant to open.

What do you mean when you say it gives away more of the special sauce....? What is the special sauce....?

What is a "broken out race".....?

I think that I understand what a "split day" is but I can't find the words easily...to explain it...

[betovernetcapper]

For what it's worth, I tweeted Mike Hogan of the DRF & he prefers Beyers.

[cj]

Originally Posted by betovernetcapper

For what it's worth, I tweeted Mike Hogan of the DRF & he prefers Beyers.

Just to be accurate, Mike isn't with DRF any longer, been gone at least a few months now.

[JohnGalt1]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And if there is only one grass race on a particular day, that race alone will be used as the "standard" for that day's turf variant...regardless of the quality of that race. If the 3-year turf record at a mile is 1:35, and a field of $15,000 claimers ran the race in 1:40...then the turf track variant for the day is set at 25.

Which is why I do not use drf or any variant when handicapping turf races. Even at Kentucky Downs where all races are on grass, they card races at so many distances that even those variants should be treated as estimates, if used, which I don't.

For dirt, variants that vary far from the average, 16-17-18, I also be treat skeptically. If the variant is over 30, the pace rating is almost garbage.

The problem is with horses with one or two races with extreme variants. Any pace figure I use I place in parentheses and treat the races as glorified workouts.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt1

Which is why I do not use drf or any variant when handicapping turf races. Even at Kentucky Downs where all races are on grass, they card races at so many distances that even those variants should be treated as estimates, if used, which I don't.

For dirt, variants that vary far from the average, 16-17-18, I also be treat skeptically. If the variant is over 30, the pace rating is almost garbage.

The problem is with horses with one or two races with extreme variants. Any pace figure I use I place in parentheses and treat the races as glorified workouts.

The problems you describe here consist the core of the the speed figure maker and from what I can realize reading this board very few have a deep understanding of the related complexities and their potential solutions.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

1. The Timeform Early and Late pace figures were recently added to the paper. Other major improvements are on the way. You probably don't know that because you don't buy it. You just complain about it.

2. None of the major figure services provides track variants for reasons I tried to explain to you. In large part, it would be like giving away the recipe to a popular food item. It would also open a can of worms about individual figures.

3. If you buy a Formulator subscription, you can get pace figures, print out a customized hard copy of the PPs, save money, and not have to look at the DRF Speed Rating or Track Variant. They aren't in Formulator.

I'm not customer service. I try to be helpful here because I can be, because some people here have been very helpful to me, and because I like almost everyone here. You can contact customer service and ask them for more information if I'm not helpful enough.

1. Of course I know about the recent Timeform Early-Late pace-figure addition. I even commented about that in a prior post. As presented...they are totally inadequate for serious pace-handicapping use.

2. The other major figure services don't provide variants...but the DRF elects to provide a FAULTY one. Why a major figure provider insists on offering faulty information to their customers in today's ultra-competitive day and age is beyond me. Plus...the other major figure services provide pace figures for individual races, which the online customers can access for FREE. I guess $11 isn't a high-enough price to charge if pace figures are to be included in the current product.

3. Again...I was talking about that "subset of customers" who insist on buying the DRF printed edition. Why should they have to buy FORMULATOR in order to get some quality pace figures? Aren't they currently paying enough for the printed edition? Is there a valid reason why there are no decent pace ratings included in today's DRF printed edition?

I wasn't attacking you personally...I commented towards you because of your post #56...where you said that the inclusion of the faulty DRF variant presented no "real issue"...because it could easily be IGNORED. I don't ask you the questions that I do because I think that you are the DRF "customer service"; I ask you these questions because you always imply that you know more about the DRF than the REST of us do. Like your above assertion that "other major improvements are on the way" at the DRF. WHERE has the DRF publicized that "other major improvements are on the way"? Are you the ONLY person here who knows that?

[tennoel]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Another thing:



I'm not asking for myself, mind you. After buying the DRF religiously for over 30 years...I've switched to something better. And I am wondering if the DRF wants the REST of their customers to do likewise...

And after religiously buying the DRF for over 40 years they no longer include my local tracks, Prx and Del. No reason to buy any longer.

[betovernetcapper]

Originally Posted by cj

Just to be accurate, Mike isn't with DRF any longer, been gone at least a few months now.

Didn't know. Thought he was a more or less permeant DRF resident.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

1. Of course I know about the recent Timeform Early-Late pace-figure addition. I even commented about that in a prior post. As presented...they are totally inadequate for serious pace-handicapping use.

2. The other major figure services don't provide variants...but the DRF elects to provide a FAULTY one. Why a major figure provider insists on offering faulty information to their customers in today's ultra-competitive day and age is beyond me. Plus...the other major figure services provide pace figures for individual races, which the online customers can access for FREE. I guess $11 isn't a high-enough price to charge if pace figures are to be included in the current product.

3. Again...I was talking about that "subset of customers" who insist on buying the DRF printed edition. Why should they have to buy FORMULATOR in order to get some quality pace figures? Aren't they currently paying enough for the printed edition? Is there a valid reason why there are no decent pace ratings included in today's DRF printed edition?

I wasn't attacking you personally...I commented towards you because of your post #56...where you said that the inclusion of the faulty DRF variant presented no "real issue"...because it could easily be IGNORED. I don't ask you the questions that I do because I think that you are the DRF "customer service"; I ask you these questions because you always imply that you know more about the DRF than the REST of us do. Like your above assertion that "other major improvements are on the way" at the DRF. WHERE has the DRF publicized that "other major improvements are on the way"? Are you the ONLY person here who knows that?

I thought I explained the reason the variant is still in the print edition. It's still there because some people don't agree with conventional wisdom. They think it's important information, use it, and WANT it there. How hard is that to understand? I don't use it. I ignore it.

You don't have to buy both Formulator and the print edition. You have a choice. But as I explained, if you buy just Formulator, you get pace figures (among other things), can print customized PPs, and save money.

As to putting pace figures in the print edition, it's a total non starter. To display pace figures at the race and horse level (which is the requirement) would mean almost doubling the size of each horse's PPs. You need an extra line for each line already in the PPs. To understand what I am saying, you can look at Timeform PPs. There are 2 lines for each race. For an online product like Timeform or Formulator, that's perfect. For a print product it would increase the cost of production significantly and also make the paper cumbersome to handle if the same number of tracks were included.

A large number of improvements have been made across the DRF product line and new ones have been added in the last few years. If you used our products you'd know that. That's not going to stop.

You do realize I have been going out of my way to help explain these things to you even though it's not my job and you are not even a customer? And all I get back is more whining.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I thought I explained the reason the variant is still in the print edition. It's still there because some people don't agree with conventional wisdom. They think it's important information, use it, and WANT it there. How hard is that to understand? I don't use it. I ignore it.

You don't have to buy both Formulator and the print edition. You have a choice. But as I explained, if you buy just Formulator, you get pace figures (among other things), can print customized PPs, and save money.

As to putting pace figures in the print edition, it's a total non starter. To display pace figures at the race and horse level (which is the requirement) would mean almost doubling the size of each horse's PPs. You need an extra line for each line already in the PPs. To understand what I am saying, you can look at Timeform PPs. There are 2 lines for each race. For an online product like Timeform or Formulator, that's perfect. For a print product it would increase the cost of production significantly and also make the paper cumbersome to handle if the same number of tracks were included.

A large number of improvements have been made across the DRF product line and new ones have been added in the last few years. If you used our products you'd know that. That's not going to stop.

You do realize I have been going out of my way to help explain these things to you even though it's not my job and you are not even a customer? And all I get back is more whining.

As a prior faithful DRF customer for over 30 years...I feel that I have every right to complain about the shoddy service that they continue to provide to their customers. The fact that I have stopped patronizing their inferior product doesn't mean that I can no longer complain about them. And it isn't "whining"...because I am not "crying" to you for some sort of "solution". It's YOU who have presented yourself as some sort of DRF-expert here. I would continue to complain about the DRF...even if you ignored every single one of my "whines" here. When I see incompetence in this game...then I complain. I don't do it to infuriate "company-men" such as yourself; I do it because I feel that giving honest opinions about things is what this site is all about.

You say that you've "gone out of your way to help explain things to me"...when all you've ever done is offer excuse after excuse to explain your employer's incompetence when it comes to "customer service". And for this...you want me to THANK you?