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Old 03-15-2017, 09:12 PM   #31
proximity
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out like a lion??

ok poker fans we're back at the exciting borgata in atlantic city for more poker action!

when we last left off, the lion, suffered a rare defeat and today's report finds us up early for some breakfast at casa taco before heading back to the poker room.

the lion heads for 1-2 where his raise with QQ is called and beaten by J5, the hand a reminder that you can't just go to no limit, or mid limit, or probably even high limit to elude these brutal beats. there is no escape.

over at 3-6 limit i get off to a good start and when my table breaks i look to extend my lead at a new table with a QQ of my own.

flop: KQ7

turn:7

villain: KK

with 76 from the button i limp behind the field and see a much needed flop of T98 rainbow.

villain: QJ.

meanwhile the lion has launched a furious comeback to break his borgata maiden, but the effort has knocked him out and several hours later i wake him up for some supper.

back in the poker room we jump into a LOUD 1-2 no limit game against local lawyer and author (devil leeds; a book about the jersey devil) voorhees scott macom.

the lion flops a straight but can't get a younger player who has flopped a set to bite on a $60 bet. good laydown by the kid!!

i win $11 and head for 24 where i win a quick $20 before the game breaks and i head back to 36 where i take a seat to the left to a loud and obnoxious action player. i don't do much here but eventually look down at AQ and call the action player's three bet after an early player raises. the early player caps it and half the table sees a flop of low cards. getting like a million to one i actually continue in this overcard situation. i'd love to see a queen but the turn brings an ace. the original raiser comes back to life and i start to worry but call down. i ask if he has the king and scoop a great limit pot for a one pair hand when he flips over AJ!!

back at 24 i lose $19 and return to the room to find that, overcome by intense anxiety, the lion has packed up and left for the more tranquil jungle of penn national. grantville's home and there's (supposedly) no place like it but for here and now i'm staying put in atlantic city. two more days to go.

36 -49
12 +11
24 +20
36 +63
24 -19

year -873 (22-19)
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:05 AM   #32
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proximity fans riot in the wild wild west......

ok poker fans we're back in snowy atlantic city where we start off the morning at the amazing borgata!!

philadelphia sports radio 94wip is doing a live broadcast on the casino floor and there is a lot of excitement about the eagles signing alshon jeffery. supposedly my colts had some interest in jeffery as well as dontari poe but (so far) haven't reeled in any big names. this week i did see where the colts signed a player named al woods and my immediate reaction was that if we could just get bill benter under contract that......

anyhow i grab some breakfast at bread and butter before checking out of the hotel and heading down the the poker room to close out our borgata stay with a final game of 1-2 no limit holdem.

we start slow in this one as my preflop raise with QQ is called by a player with Q9
who goes on to river a straight.

just not a good week for pen shippers playing QQ here at borgata.

when i raise again and am beaten by a player calling with A9 i get up and move to the left of BOTH of these players. eventually i rally back to even but the table starts getting tougher. i drop a couple hands with AK and down $60 i wave the white flag and head over to bally's where i have a room for the night.

unfortunately at bally's i had to pay an extra $28 to get a bed for our friend the lion (who already tucked his tail and headed back to grantville) but since i have over $2000 of caesars rewards credits this isn't that big of a deal. of course though the woman at check in can't reverse the advance deposit charge that has already been put on my credit card....... sigh.

maybe things will go better against a weak 246 limit field down in the wild west poker room?

uhh....no.

i start losing from the opening bell but towards the end look to get on the board with KK. but the cowboys lose to 73 and in the very next hand JJ is rivered by a gutshot.

at this point i get up and storm out of the poker room towards the main wild west section where there's a concert, beer pong, 21 year old girls, and lots of fun things besides losing to rag playing donkeys.

suddenly though there's complete chaos and rumors of a gun and bally's security and atlantic city police are chasing people all over the casino floor!!

they run past me about five times in both directions. there are rumors, including one that it's outraged proximity poker tour fans that have finally snapped but no one can say for sure.

thank you for reading.

borgata -60 (1/2 nl)
bally's -100 (246 lim)
year -1033 (22-21)
promo 0 (160)
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:46 AM   #33
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At 3:42 getting drilled at 5/10 half kill Omaha
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proximity View Post
there are rumors, including one that it's outraged proximity poker tour fans that have finally snapped but no one can say for sure.
Ha.
Man, if I'da bin there ...

Prox, have you ever tried tournament play? Tournies that have good blind structures with decent time between increases (and lots of players) can reward better play.
Are there 'rag playing donkeys' in tournaments? Of course. But they typically weed themselves out fairly early.
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Knave View Post
Ha.
Man, if I'da bin there ...

Prox, have you ever tried tournament play? Tournies that have good blind structures with decent time between increases (and lots of players) can reward better play.
Are there 'rag playing donkeys' in tournaments? Of course. But they typically weed themselves out fairly early.
Best advice given out on this board in quite some time....
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:23 PM   #36
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Poker tournaments require a totally different set of skills...IMO. Tight cash-game players often get a rude awakening when they venture into tournaments. Dan Harrington is the EXCEPTION rather than the rule.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Red Knave View Post
Ha.
Man, if I'da bin there ...

Prox, have you ever tried tournament play? Tournies that have good blind structures with decent time between increases (and lots of players) can reward better play.
Are there 'rag playing donkeys' in tournaments? Of course. But they typically weed themselves out fairly early.

quit tournaments while i was ahead.

i do see a lot of zombies in these fields but i simply don't enjoy tournament play.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:14 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Poker tournaments require a totally different set of skills...IMO. Tight cash-game players often get a rude awakening when they venture into tournaments. Dan Harrington is the EXCEPTION rather than the rule.

this from the famous limon #2000 thread on that other site:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...m-shyt-457839/


I wrote about this years ago. Its one of my essays about how poker is hard, boring, and no way to get rich (unless you diversify**).
Another place you see this is in televised cash games. Contrary to many of the posts on 2+2 these games are BORING! Doyle is boring, Patrick is boring, ivey is boring, jman is fuqqing boring, reese was boring, chan is boring, greenstien ohhh so eye gougingly boring and, don’t say it, ZOMG!, im gonna say it…DURRRRRRRRRRRRRR is boring! (sans 1 hand but that just proves the point). Guy isn’t boring, gold isn’t boring, the gyno isn’t boring, negreanu isn’t boring, hellmuth isn’t boring, elezra isn’t boring, matusow isn’t boring…etc…do we see a pattern?


i'm about as boring as they come.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:11 AM   #39
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peppermint patty needs a ride.....

ok poker fans we are back at the amazing bally's in frigid atlantic city!!

when we last left off i lost with KK and JJ in back to back hands and there was a riot in the wild west section of the casino.

with a fraternity/bachelor party group on my (mr big shot diamond member) floor i didn't expect to get much sleep but surprisingly i never heard a peep out of them.

instead at 5:00 am i am awoken by a peppermint patty sounding girl in the room next door telling her life story to some hapless chump on her cell phone.

peppermint patty doesn't want to be in a relationship with charlie brown. instead she wants to travel for work and have sex with lots of other guys is the cliffs notes.

when i hear this i think about getting up and knocking on her door but with the way i'm running in this godforsaken city she'd probably be bigger and uglier than the average lineman on the colts.

instead i drift back to sleep for a few hours before heading downstairs for a nice breakfast at johnny rockets.

on the way back to the room i stop at the check in counter and surprise, surprise; bally's CAN take the charge off my credit card and apply my reward credits!!

so the morning's going well and my play now is to sleep a few more hours before heading down to the poker room to avenge last night's loss to those high hand chasing donkeys.

at 9:00 though peppermint patty gets another call.

apparently charlie brown's abandoned her here in atlantic city and she needs a ride back to.... newark??

sigh....

Last edited by proximity; 03-22-2017 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:29 PM   #40
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Poker tournaments require a totally different set of skills...IMO. Tight cash-game players often get a rude awakening when they venture into tournaments. Dan Harrington is the EXCEPTION rather than the rule.
One thing about large-field live tournaments that almost nobody seems to realize is that the variance involved is so large that it's unlikely that anyone has outrun it.

There are some mathematical truths about tournament play that players should learn before playing in them-- ICM and the like, as well as a bunch of pokerstove / equilator calculations about how wide ranges play against other hands-- but certainly if you are looking to make a consistent profit in poker, you probably need to play cash games (unless short field tournaments are frequent enough where you play, or you can play large field tournaments online) because at least you have a shot at attaining a decent sample size and establishing a real winrate. You'll never really know if your results in big-field live tournaments are due to running bad or good or your skill level.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proximity View Post
this from the famous limon #2000 thread on that other site:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...m-shyt-457839/


I wrote about this years ago. Its one of my essays about how poker is hard, boring, and no way to get rich (unless you diversify**).
Another place you see this is in televised cash games. Contrary to many of the posts on 2+2 these games are BORING! Doyle is boring, Patrick is boring, ivey is boring, jman is fuqqing boring, reese was boring, chan is boring, greenstien ohhh so eye gougingly boring and, don’t say it, ZOMG!, im gonna say it…DURRRRRRRRRRRRRR is boring! (sans 1 hand but that just proves the point). Guy isn’t boring, gold isn’t boring, the gyno isn’t boring, negreanu isn’t boring, hellmuth isn’t boring, elezra isn’t boring, matusow isn’t boring…etc…do we see a pattern?


i'm about as boring as they come.
BTW, this, from that piece (and limon was a big-time winning 1000NL player at Commerce for years), is brilliant:

Quote:
The truth is the beginning of the hand is the MOST important part…BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Just like w/ 9 ball every shot sets up the next shot(s).
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:19 AM   #42
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Is the famous limon a better NL holdem player than the late Bobby Hoff? Because I heard it straight from Hoff's own mouth that deep-stacked NL holdem is essentially a POST-flop game. And I have read where numerous great players have echoed the same sentiment. And I -- admittedly NOT a "great player" -- agree wholeheartedly.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:24 PM   #43
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Is the famous limon a better NL holdem player than the late Bobby Hoff? Because I heard it straight from Hoff's own mouth that deep-stacked NL holdem is essentially a POST-flop game. And I have read where numerous great players have echoed the same sentiment. And I -- admittedly NOT a "great player" -- agree wholeheartedly.
This gets back to psychology.

Discipline is boring. That's what limon is saying when he rattles off a bunch of great players and calls them boring.

It's no fun to fold a lot. It's especially no fun to fold a lot against players who aren't as good as you are.

So the human brain is going to come up with reasons not to fold. This is called "motivated reasoning". It's no different than how even decent horseplayers who are behind on a card will suddenly come up with some amazing betting angle on the last race on the card when they were going to pass it.

There is a grain of truth to the idea that good players can make some loose pre-flop plays and get away with them because they have a big post flop advantage, especially in deep stacked no limit.

But it's also true that this is what the brain of every poker player wants to tell itself because it's frustrating to have to fold against bad players.

What limon is saying is that the winning players have tremendous pre-flop discipline (and are boring) and that because they do, they play better post-flop as well by avoiding getting into bad situations. They make more money in the long run by passing up temptations.

And that is true, even in deep stack no limit.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:26 PM   #44
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This gets back to psychology.

Discipline is boring. That's what limon is saying when he rattles off a bunch of great players and calls them boring.

It's no fun to fold a lot. It's especially no fun to fold a lot against players who aren't as good as you are.

So the human brain is going to come up with reasons not to fold. This is called "motivated reasoning". It's no different than how even decent horseplayers who are behind on a card will suddenly come up with some amazing betting angle on the last race on the card when they were going to pass it.

There is a grain of truth to the idea that good players can make some loose pre-flop plays and get away with them because they have a big post flop advantage, especially in deep stacked no limit.

But it's also true that this is what the brain of every poker player wants to tell itself because it's frustrating to have to fold against bad players.

What limon is saying is that the winning players have tremendous pre-flop discipline (and are boring) and that because they do, they play better post-flop as well by avoiding getting into bad situations. They make more money in the long run by passing up temptations.

And that is true, even in deep stack no limit.
I'd never disagree with you if you simply stated that correct pre-flop play is vitally important in no limit. But you've taken this a lot further in our poker discussions here, by suggesting that NL is "essentially a pre-flop game"...and this assertion is refuted by the vast majority of the poker "experts" out there.

One of the qualities separating the "expert" player from the merely competent one is the ability to control this "temptation" that the looser pre-flop play sometimes presents during the latter stages of the hand. The expert NL player does not abide by a set-in-stone pre-flop strategy; he reshapes his pre-flop strategy in accordance with the dynamics -- and the stack sizes -- of the game that he is participating in. What the onlooker may perceive as "undisciplined" pre-flop play may in fact be the optimal way of playing for the conditions present in the particular game at hand. The "relaxed" pre-flop play isn't just an "antidote for boredom".

In NL, the pot grows at a rapid pace after each round of betting...and the betting decisions get more and more critical as the hand progresses. When the player is comparatively short-stacked...then the post-flop decisions may often be considered "automatic". But even the short-stacked player can acquire a large stack during the game...and that's when the overriding importance of proper post-flop play becomes obvious. IMO...the only time when pre-flop play becomes as important as you make it sound, is when the player insists on remaining short-stacked forever...by table-hopping whenever he acquires a large stack. But, this method is hardly the preferred approach of the expert NL player.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:49 PM   #45
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PS...

I'd love to see the Whizz play a more active role in this discussion.
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