Ban On Lasix

[bitkey]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Casner’s diatribe was debunked immediately but it’s still being passed around.

It was not debunked. There was an attempt to counter by those that can’t train without lasix but they failed in their usual bs efforts. People are wiser now and believe the studies and data over the chemical vets and trainers opinions.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by bitkey

It was not debunked. There was an attempt to counter by those that can’t train without lasix but they failed in their usual bs efforts. People are wiser now and believe the studies and data over the chemical vets and trainers opinions.

Wrong. He was debunked as his support for his theories were human studies. Horses aren’t humans. There is zero evidence that Lasix contributes to weak bone in horses. A recent study just released about 3 weeks ago said there was no tie between Lasix and breakdowns.

[bitkey]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Wrong. He was debunked as his support for his theories were human studies. Horses aren’t humans. There is zero evidence that Lasix contributes to weak bone in horses. A recent study just released about 3 weeks ago said there was no tie between Lasix and breakdowns.

There has been no study done on racehorses that negates the tie between lasix and breakdowns. There has been no study to disprove that this happens in horses the same as humans. We are both mammals.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by bob60566

More severe penalties dealt out to stamp out uncontrolled drug use in Socal hope this a lesson to others.

https://www.drf.com/news/baffert-mil...overages?type=

The problem with all these re-distributed purse monies after trainers are found to have positives is that it doesn't filter down to the bettors. I'm not going to get my money back because I failed to make an "investment" in one of the cheaters' horses in a race.

I can't handicap drugs. This is why I need to move my wagering over to a place where I don't have to.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

There is zero evidence that Lasix contributes to weak bone in horses.

So massive mineral and esp. sustained (over a period of days, and often needing to be supplemented) calcium leaching/loss wouldn't have an effect on the bones / musculoskelatal system of young developing horses-----because they're not humans?

You must be reading the propaganda put out by the salix manufacturers.


Pretending that this would not affect a horse's bones is like believing the earth is flat. Of course, you may actually BE a flat-earther, I don't know.

Simple logic is all that is really necessary

(lacking an actual "study" on how this affects breakdown rates despite that they've had decades in which to do such a study is most likely *on purpose*. )

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by bitkey

There has been no study done on racehorses that negates the tie between lasix and breakdowns. There has been no study to disprove that this happens in horses the same as humans. We are both mammals.

Just a couple weeks ago there was a study looking at breakdowns in Australia and they found no cause between Lasix and breakdowns.

Prior, I don't know what studies were particularly looked at, but the top vets in racing have said there is no relation. So I guess you can just theorize or you can figure the best vets in racing may know more than you on the subject.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by clicknow

So massive mineral and esp. sustained (over a period of days, and often needing to be supplemented) calcium leaching/loss wouldn't have an effect on the bones / musculoskelatal system of young developing horses-----because they're not humans?

You must be reading the propaganda put out by the salix manufacturers.


Pretending that this would not affect a horse's bones is like believing the earth is flat. Of course, you may actually BE a flat-earther, I don't know.

Simple logic is all that is really necessary

(lacking an actual "study" on how this affects breakdown rates despite that they've had decades in which to do such a study is most likely *on purpose*. )

You just want to believe whatever your little heart wants to believe, science and vets be damned.

I'll take the word of Dr. Bramlage any day of the week over yours, and you look foolish to act like you know better than him. Go read what he has to say about it.

[Fager Fan]

What about Lasix? Doesn't that weaken the bone?

Dr. Larry Bramlage: There is a study by Kentucky Equine Research which shows Lasix does affect the total calcium outflow in the urine, but that is happening while the Lasix is effective. I think they looked at a 24-hour loss, but most of the change was in a few hours. That's a transient effect, and most horses waste calcium anyway. In other words, they're intaking way more calcium than they actually need. Horsemen can easily determine if this is the case by looking at their horses' urine. If it's cloudy, that's due to excess calcium. If it's perfectly clear, you might want to look at your horse's calcium balance, but most horses' urine is cloudy.

The effect of Lasix, that all started with a corollary paper in Scandinavia that showed elderly people who were on Lasix would have calcium deficiencies and increased fractures. The study initially blamed Lasix for the problem. When it was repeated, it turned out those people were on Lasix because they had cardiac disease and they were getting Lasix continuously. When they unraveled the whole scenario, they learned the fracture incidence was mostly fractures of the wrist due to falls. Those people were on medication for heart disease, and when you're on that you have lower blood pressure. When you stand up real quickly and your blood pressure is too low, you get postural hypotension, and you have an instant where you're a little vertigo and in a second it passes away. What was really happening was people were falling more and that was the reason for the increased fractures. When the study was repeated, that association between Lasix and fractures was disproved.

The practicality of the fact is horses are not on Lasix multiple times a day like people are when they have cardiac disease. In the overall scheme of calcium metabolism, it has very little effect. We tend to overfeed calcium to horses anyway.

[bitkey]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Just a couple weeks ago there was a study looking at breakdowns in Australia and they found no cause between Lasix and breakdowns.

Prior, I don't know what studies were particularly looked at, but the top vets in racing have said there is no relation. So I guess you can just theorize or you can figure the best vets in racing may know more than you on the subject.

The best vets in racing do what the owners and trainers tell them to do. It’s all about the money.

[bitkey]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

What about Lasix? Doesn't that weaken the bone?

Dr. Larry Bramlage: There is a study by Kentucky Equine Research which shows Lasix does affect the total calcium outflow in the urine, but that is happening while the Lasix is effective. I think they looked at a 24-hour loss, but most of the change was in a few hours. That's a transient effect, and most horses waste calcium anyway. In other words, they're intaking way more calcium than they actually need. Horsemen can easily determine if this is the case by looking at their horses' urine. If it's cloudy, that's due to excess calcium. If it's perfectly clear, you might want to look at your horse's calcium balance, but most horses' urine is cloudy.

The effect of Lasix, that all started with a corollary paper in Scandinavia that showed elderly people who were on Lasix would have calcium deficiencies and increased fractures. The study initially blamed Lasix for the problem. When it was repeated, it turned out those people were on Lasix because they had cardiac disease and they were getting Lasix continuously. When they unraveled the whole scenario, they learned the fracture incidence was mostly fractures of the wrist due to falls. Those people were on medication for heart disease, and when you're on that you have lower blood pressure. When you stand up real quickly and your blood pressure is too low, you get postural hypotension, and you have an instant where you're a little vertigo and in a second it passes away. What was really happening was people were falling more and that was the reason for the increased fractures. When the study was repeated, that association between Lasix and fractures was disproved.

The practicality of the fact is horses are not on Lasix multiple times a day like people are when they have cardiac disease. In the overall scheme of calcium metabolism, it has very little effect. We tend to overfeed calcium to horses anyway.

That right there proves my point. The vets will spin it the direction they are told to spin it.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You just want to believe whatever your little heart wants to believe, science and vets be damned.

I'll take the word of Dr. Bramlage any day of the week over yours, and you look foolish to act like you know better than him. Go read what he has to say about it.

Fager, you really don't understand that vets who want to work in the American racing industry are never going to admit the scope of doping of horses in the United States. If Bramlage said "yeah, trainers are doping their horses when they used Lasix", he'd lose a lot of work.

Now if you find a vet of Bramlage's stature who works IN A JURISDICTION WHERE LASIX IS BANNED and expresses a similar opinion, I might very well credit such an opinion. But from what I have seen, vets in the rest of the world disagree with Bramlage and say that Lasix is at the very least a performance enhancer, if not also a masking agent.

[Fager Fan]

Don't ever question the ethics of Larry Bramlage.

You have no evidence to do so, and no right to do so.

[jay68802]

If a study was done in America, there would be a very high % of horse's that broke down that also had lasix in there system or had used lasix before. Simple logic could say that lasix causes breakdowns. Logic also says that since almost all horses are given race day lasix, you can not come to the conclusion that lasix causes breakdowns. Sort of the same thing as saying that higher ice cream sales cause murders to increase. I really do not know if any study that is done here can be trusted because of the high amount of lasix use. I am just sort of waiting and hoping that the tracks do not back down on this issue.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by jay68802

If a study was done in America, there would be a very high % of horse's that broke down that also had lasix in there system or had used lasix before. Simple logic could say that lasix causes breakdowns. Logic also says that since almost all horses are given race day lasix, you can not come to the conclusion that lasix causes breakdowns. Sort of the same thing as saying that higher ice cream sales cause murders to increase. I really do not know if any study that is done here can be trusted because of the high amount of lasix use. I am just sort of waiting and hoping that the tracks do not back down on this issue.

Let me ask you this. If you think Lasix could cause breakdowns, then the proposed raceday ban should not be nearly enough for you. It’d still be legal in training, where it’d likely be used then far more then than it is now. My guess is that among top trainers, maybe 50% use it for breezes. Probably close to 0% of low level horses use it for breezes. These numbers would undoubtedly increase. The ones pushing for the raceday ban just want to be able to say we don’t run on raceday Lasix. That’s totally for breeding value. They couldn’t care less if it’s used any other time (or if it causes breakdowns).

The public’s being hoodwinked on the Lasix ban legislation. It’s all about the blueblood breeders, for the blueblood breeders.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Don't ever question the ethics of Larry Bramlage.

You have no evidence to do so, and no right to do so.

I am not questioning his "ethics". I am saying that people don't say things where they have a financial interest in not saying them. That's not a point about ethics. It's a point about human nature.