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Old 05-24-2020, 04:39 PM   #5011
MDCnorthlands
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boxcar can you give me a positive vote to my reputation? I just want to be slightly in the positive if possible so I don't go to PaceAdvantage hell.

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Old 05-24-2020, 04:46 PM   #5012
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What is "the principle of proportionate causation"

How does Ben Franklyn's tale above, fit "proportionate causation"

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
And eventually thru greater and greater cause and effects,.....
the kingdom was lost. Isn't a horseshoe nail much less than a kingdom?
How are they greater and greater causes and effects?

The nail has the causal power to mend the shoe. The shoe does not have the causal power to mend itself. The shoe has the casual power to enable the horse's mobility, the horse the casual power to transport the rider (I almost typed jockey), etc...The Colonials had the causal power to secure the kingdom. The kingdom did not have the casual power to secure itself.
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:04 PM   #5013
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If your religion prescribes that you spend your whole life with one woman, that religion isn't for me. I know kids from my rink who married their high school sweethearts and are still together. They must be tormented daily wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere. To me, they're ticking time bombs and by the time they hit 40 they'll probably be seeing prostitutes regularly.

The only thing I've followed religiously in my life is smoking, Costco hot dogs, gambling, and women.

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I personally feel a sense of loss for you, MD. The idea of license mistaken as freedom, of self-gratuity vs. self-gift runs through your post, and through the culture at large. Authentic love is the acceptance of responsibility and obligation, willingly undertaken on my part and the part of countless individuals better than me. It's the difference between a culture built on family, vs. a utilitarian society whereby someone's worth isn't dependent on who they are, but by what they can provide.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:06 PM   #5014
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I personally feel a sense of loss for you, MD. The idea of license mistaken as freedom, of self-gratuity vs. self-gift runs through your post, and through the culture at large. Authentic love is the acceptance of responsibility and obligation, willingly undertaken on my part and the part of countless individuals better than me. It's the difference between a culture built on family, vs. a utilitarian society whereby someone's worth isn't dependent on who they are, but by what they can provide.
I feel like we've spoken before, in a WWJD chatroom in 2001.

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Old 05-24-2020, 06:08 PM   #5015
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Guys who is destroying my reputation?? I was a -20 and now -58.

I need to dig myself out of this hole. I don't want a negative PaceAdvantage reputation ranking on my gravestone.

"MDCnorthlands, wandering eye and -58 reputation, 1953-2020"

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Old 05-24-2020, 06:38 PM   #5016
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Ever hear of secondary causes?
Not in the example I posed. Neither had Ben Franklyn.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:57 PM   #5017
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I feel like we've spoken before, in a WWJD chatroom in 2001.

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I don't think it was me. I don't recall participating in that setting.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:00 PM   #5018
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Not in the example I posed. Neither had Ben Franklyn.
Which only proves you can't count. A secondary cause is any cause that is not the ultimate cause.
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:57 AM   #5019
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Quote:
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How are they greater and greater causes and effects?

The nail has the causal power to mend the shoe. The shoe does not have the causal power to mend itself. The shoe has the casual power to enable the horse's mobility, the horse the casual power to transport the rider (I almost typed jockey), etc...The Colonials had the causal power to secure the kingdom. The kingdom did not have the casual power to secure itself.
You are not serious are you? A tiny cause can produce a larger effect. Happens all the time. Can think of dozens of examples.

However, let me take a crack at your mishmosh.....
Pretty much as Ben Franklyn said...

The nail has the "power" to loosen the shoe. The shoe has the "power" to stumble the hoof. The hoof to unbalance the leg, tjhe leg to down the horse, etc, etc, etc. Cause and effect runs both ways, there is no rule, law, principle requiring one to be greater or smaller than the other. However we can describe exactly what happens when a smaller object hits a larger one, and a larger a smaller one. To both mathematically.We hafve known this since Newton

You never told me what the "principle of proportionate causation" is?

If you ever ran a business, or built something, in terms of practicality and profitability, you would soon realize "less is more" Will never forget how necessity spurred a cheaper simpler solution. Ask any businessman if accomplishing a task easier and simpler is preferable to a more expensive way? See what happens. Can you spell "efficiency"? A backbone of capitalism is "efficiency" Even a liberal like me knows that.

30 years ago, I needed a method of cementing three parts together quickly and easily in a semi-production line operation. Using materials I was not very familiar with. I was told by an equipment salesman, I needed a "precision gluing machine" they were introducing on the market. For one worker to use with "super glue." Costing $ 2500+ including a supply of that glue. It was only for a run of less than 2,000 items, each retailing at only $4.00 a pop. Not exactly cost effective. Did not foresee it's use again for other items.

Can you spell "cost effective"?

One of our enthusiastic acquaintances convinced my partner to try it out. At the time they bought it I was on vacation. The first day I returned I discovered it was very slow, even though it used instantaneous super glue, since it clogged up frequently and was difficult to use. A lemon. A kluge.
Over a minute and 1/2+ each overall, to do that operation. We projected a much much faster rate. Super glue? Yeah, right?

My partner was pretty annoyed he got talked into it. I had a foreman who was extremely familiar with the chemicals, cements and materials. Told him to contact our cement supplier and get a viscous glue that was relatively quick drying, and would work with the materials we were working with. I constructed 6 or so wooden trays to support dozens of these items at a time while setting, about 10 minutes, (much slower than the super glue), and asked on of my worker to run out to the dollar store to buy a squeeze ketchup/mustard bottle.

Had the guy assembling the items fill up the ketchup bottle (cost under $1 ) with the viscous glue, $10 for a gallon, maybe 1/2 a penny an item glued), and begin to assemble. He applied a squirt of the glue, inserted the parts to be glued in each little compartment in each drying tray. Completed a tray in minutes. Took another tray as the previous was completed, and so on.

Finished the run 2,000 piece run in under a day. Over 180 an hour.

Less is more, way more.
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Old 05-25-2020, 04:38 AM   #5020
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Ever practice any oriental marshal art. I briefly studied Tai Chi when I was 23.. Taught by an elderly Chinese teacher.

One day at a public demonstration as an introduction. He choose me as a subject. I had returned from a cross country bicycle trip. Learned some judo in San Francisco. Looked like I had just finished Marine boot camp. Was in excellent physical shape. He probably picked me for those reasons.

He demonstrated "pushing hands"


He quickly learned my balance point. I immediately understood what he was doing. Before I could determine his balance poinnt, and with only his fingertips pushed me off balance, sending me across the floor A small amount of force at the correct point, was just enough to unbalance me.

Using an opponents own momentum

The principle of less is more in the oriental martial arts
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Old 05-25-2020, 05:29 AM   #5021
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1 more example of a small force unbalancing something much larger.

Boxcar is on one side of a see saw, dnlgfnk is on the other.

Both are exactly even in weight. Both at 200 lbs.
The see saw is at perfect equilibrium.
Let's cal, the see saw an Aristotle, Aquinas balance.

Professor Edward Feser publishes a new paper. It is 10 pages and weighs 1 ounce. Only one copy. Boxcar grabs it up first. The see saw is thrown off balance.

2, 200 lb fully grown men thrown off balance by a 1 ounce paper.

Where is the "principle of proportionate causation"?
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:08 AM   #5022
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1 more example of a small force unbalancing something much larger.

Boxcar is on one side of a see saw, dnlgfnk is on the other.

Both are exactly even in weight. Both at 200 lbs.
The see saw is at perfect equilibrium.
Let's cal, the see saw an Aristotle, Aquinas balance.

Professor Edward Feser publishes a new paper. It is 10 pages and weighs 1 ounce. Only one copy. Boxcar grabs it up first. The see saw is thrown off balance.

2, 200 lb fully grown men thrown off balance by a 1 ounce paper.

Where is the "principle of proportionate causation"?
Wrong. 2 men are thrown off balance by one man + 1 oz. of paper.

The 1 oz. of paper isn't the only thing on the see saw.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:27 AM   #5023
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How do you know this?

What do you mean by greater? You know the old Ben Franklyn story?

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.


A nail, the cause, is less greater than losing a kingdom, the effect.
Q1. Why was the kingdom lost?
A1. Because the battle was lost.

Q2. Why was the battle lost?
A2. Because the message was lost.

Q3. Why was the message lost?
A3. Because the rider was lost.

Q4. Why was the rider lost?
A4. Because the horse was lost.

Q5. Why was the horse lost?
A5. Because the shoe was lost.

Q6. Why was the shoe lost?
A6. Because for a want of a nail.

If we stopped right here, my arithmetic tells me there there are six causes: five of them secondary and one primary.

However, answer number 6 kinda begs the question, doesn't it? The next question that is begging to be asked is: Why the want for a nail? There could be many more answers (additional secondary causes) necessary to get to the bottom of this question.

Go play in your sandbox, Humpty. This discussion is way above your pay grade.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:37 AM   #5024
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Wrong. 2 men are thrown off balance by one man + 1 oz. of paper.

The 1 oz. of paper isn't the only thing on the see saw.
It is the direct cause of the see saw placing you flat on your ass. Many things exist in a delicate state of equilibrium. Unbalancing forces become quickly evident. So within that system a minute change is sometimes more easily observed than that same force outside of that system.

Why do you think the first scales were "balance scales"?....
Quote:
The most ancient relics of a weighing scale have been discovered in the Indus River valley, near present day's Pakistan, and date back to around 2,000 B.C. Those first weighing scales were actually balances, using two plates attached to an overhead beam, itself fixed on a central pole.
That allows a sensitive detection of very small weights, comparing new weights to old.

Still waiting for...

1)- Your explanation of how evolution violates the fallacy of composition.

2)-For you gents to tell me what "principle of proportionate causation" is
...and how evolution violates that?

3)-For you to tell me how in Ben Franklyn's classic tale of "for want of a nail"
....how a small horseshoe nail is greater than a kingdom.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:55 AM   #5025
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It is the direct cause of the see saw placing you flat on your ass. Many things exist in a delicate state of equilibrium. Unbalancing forces become quickly evident. So within that system a minute change is sometimes more easily observed than that same force outside of that system.

Why do you think the first scales were "balance scales"?....
That allows a sensitive detection of very small weights, comparing new weights to old.

Still waiting for...

1)- Your explanation of how evolution violates the fallacy of composition.

2)-For you gents to tell me what "principle of proportionate causation" is
...and how evolution violates that?

3)-For you to tell me how in Ben Franklyn's classic tale of "for want of a nail"
....how a small horseshoe nail is greater than a kingdom.
I just laid out number 3 for you earlier.

The 1 oz. paper alone did not top the see saw. To tip the see saw, it took that 1 oz. paper + one man on one side and + one man on the other side.

As I said earlier, this discussion is way above your pay grade. Give it a rest.
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