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Old 05-24-2020, 12:18 PM   #4996
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Isn't the genetic code the cause of transformation? Would it be possible for any transformation (change) to occur, apart from the genetic code!?
Yes, genes are "blueprints" initializing the growing process and all biological functions on a molecular, electrical and chemical scale. All microscopic. They themselves are microscopic. So I ask again, how can something microscopic contain "effects" that occur on a macroscopic scales thousands of times larger than the scale of their "causes" if according to you.....en "effect" must be IN it's "cause" if it won't fit

I gave you an opportunity to correct that so you can tell us how that invalidates evolution more rationally than the absurd lunacy you have been spouting.

Still waiting and btw, tell us how evolution violates the fallacy of composition, a statement you made months ago, never explaining how or why.
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:11 PM   #4997
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Yes, genes are "blueprints" initializing the growing process and all biological functions on a molecular, electrical and chemical scale. All microscopic. They themselves are microscopic. So I ask again, how can something microscopic contain "effects" that occur on a macroscopic scales thousands of times larger than the scale of their "causes" if according to you.....en "effect" must be IN it's "cause" if it won't fit

I gave you an opportunity to correct that so you can tell us how that invalidates evolution more rationally than the absurd lunacy you have been spouting.

Still waiting and btw, tell us how evolution violates the fallacy of composition, a statement you made months ago, never explaining how or why.
You have it backwards, you nincompoop! I never said the effects are in their causes! I said causes are always in their effects!
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:37 PM   #4998
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Religion is for the mentally weak... or someone with a horse charging to the finish line.

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Old 05-24-2020, 01:49 PM   #4999
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Religion is for the mentally weak... or someone with a horse charging to the finish line.

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Wow! Did you come up with that all by yourself?
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:51 PM   #5000
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You have it backwards, you nincompoop! I never said the effects are in their causes! I said causes are always in their effects!
You said
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All I said about evolution is that a cause must be in its effect, which does demolish evolution -- just like the caterpillar is in the butterfly.
Ok, I will accept that. However, genes are the cause that initiates growth. Genes are within all orgasms. Evolution prunes and selects genes naturally, thru natural selection, while it is happening. That "pruning" takes place over millions of generations. Altering the genetic material.

The genes that regulate an insects growth regulates the transformation of a
caterpillar into a butterfly.

Therefore evolution is in the genes. I don't see your problem.

Yo have to do better.

There is no "rule" or principle that says causes must be in their effects, or effects must be in their causes.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:20 PM   #5001
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You said Ok, I will accept that. However, genes are the cause that initiates growth. Genes are within all orgasms. Evolution prunes and selects genes naturally, thru natural selection, while it is happening. That "pruning" takes place over millions of generations. Altering the genetic material.

The genes that regulate an insects growth regulates the transformation of a
caterpillar into a butterfly.

Therefore evolution is in the genes. I don't see your problem.

Yo have to do better.

There is no "rule" or principle that says causes must be in their effects, or effects must be in their causes.
Effects can never be in their causes. Why? Because effects are not greater than their causes! Therefore, the opposite must be true!
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:42 PM   #5002
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Effects can never be in their causes. Why? Because effects are not greater than their causes! Therefore, the opposite must be true!
How do you know this?

What do you mean by greater? You know the old Ben Franklyn story?

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.


A nail, the cause, is less greater than losing a kingdom, the effect.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:57 PM   #5003
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Quote:
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You said Ok, I will accept that. However, genes are the cause that initiates growth. Genes are within all orgasms. Evolution prunes and selects genes naturally, thru natural selection, while it is happening. That "pruning" takes place over millions of generations. Altering the genetic material.

The genes that regulate an insects growth regulates the transformation of a
caterpillar into a butterfly.

Therefore evolution is in the genes. I don't see your problem.

Yo have to do better.

There is no "rule" or principle that says causes must be in their effects, or effects must be in their causes.
If one accepts the principle of sufficient reason (intelligible world) and the principle of causation (act/potency) then what's being attempted here is the principle of proportionate causation. But it must be separated into formal (the effect shares the same nature as the cause--man causes a man, tiger causes a tiger), eminent (the effect is significantly different than cause (caterpillar/butterfly), or virtual (a painter [or brush?] causes a painting).
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:49 PM   #5004
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Originally Posted by hcap View Post
How do you know this?

What do you mean by greater? You know the old Ben Franklyn story?

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.


A nail, the cause, is less greater than losing a kingdom, the effect.
Actually, there are multiple causes stated above!

You truly can't think beyond the tip of your condescending snout!
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:50 PM   #5005
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If one accepts the principle of sufficient reason (intelligible world) and the principle of causation (act/potency) then what's being attempted here is the principle of proportionate causation. But it must be separated into formal (the effect shares the same nature as the cause--man causes a man, tiger causes a tiger), eminent (the effect is significantly different than cause (caterpillar/butterfly), or virtual (a painter [or brush?] causes a painting).
What is "the principle of proportionate causation"

How does Ben Franklyn's tale above, fit "proportionate causation"

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
And eventually thru greater and greater cause and effects,.....
the kingdom was lost. Isn't a horseshoe nail much less than a kingdom?
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:51 PM   #5006
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If your religion prescribes that you spend your whole life with one woman, that religion isn't for me. I know kids from my rink who married their high school sweethearts and are still together. They must be tormented daily wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere. To me, they're ticking time bombs and by the time they hit 40 they'll probably be seeing prostitutes regularly.

The only thing I've followed religiously in my life is smoking, Costco hot dogs, gambling, and women.

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Old 05-24-2020, 04:05 PM   #5007
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Actually, there are multiple causes stated above!

You truly can't think beyond the tip of your condescending snout!
Yes there are multiple causes but they all are chained together. Isn't the nail the "primary cause" of that chain? Aristotle said that things in nature are caused and that these causes in nature exist in a chain, stretching backward.

So without debating whether or not god dislodged the nail, the nail was the primary cause of losing the kingdom.

Stop the insults and explain how a nail is greater than a kingdom.
Remember you said the cause must be greater than the effect.
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:30 PM   #5008
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What is "the principle of proportionate causation"

How does Ben Franklyn's tale above, fit "proportionate causation"

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
And eventually thru greater and greater cause and effects,.....
the kingdom was lost. Isn't a horseshoe nail much less than a kingdom?
Ever hear of secondary causes?
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:33 PM   #5009
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If your religion prescribes that you spend your whole life with one woman, that religion isn't for me. I know kids from my rink who married their high school sweethearts and are still together. They must be tormented daily wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere. To me, they're ticking time bombs and by the time they hit 40 they'll probably be seeing prostitutes regularly.

The only thing I've followed religiously in my life is smoking, Costco hot dogs, gambling, and women.

MDCnorthlands
I can definitely go with the Costco hot dogs. Of course, if they'll ever come back since I'm told that life on this planet ain't never goin' to be the same due to covid-19.
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:37 PM   #5010
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I can definitely go with the Costco hot dogs. Of course, if they'll ever come back since I'm told that life on this planet ain't never goin' to be the same due to covid-19.
It will be fine, just get extra onions to kill any bacteria.

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