Turf Harness Racing, I like it!

[LottaKash]

Originally Posted by Sea Biscuit

LK I will be right behind you in quitting this game, when they introduce turf harness with different distances. There will be more quitters to this game than they will bringing in new ones.

I suggest those you find this game boring, they should seriously consider the flats.

Sea Biscuit.

Ok Biscuit, still, the problem is the same with the flats, TOO MUCH RACING, and not enough GOOD horses to go around.....The short-fields for the flats are even much worse that the trots....Plus the fact that, at the flats they can get away with "scratching" a horse for any old reason....At the trot's you had better have a good reason to scratch a horse....Still, the problem, especially at the Big-M, for me, is the shortage of "Quality" horses that should be competing at that track....This year they lowered their purses, and lowered the standards, from some long standing "bottom Line"-entry level races...This year in particular they have attracted so many "sick, lame and lazy" horses.... And, no matter how good the trainer are, they are just not that competitive this year...I think it a problem that is only going to get worse.....Yes, racing at the Big-M, has gotten very boring & unplayable....Boring to the point that I play elsewhere now, and find it pretty good pickins' on most days elsewhere....Sure the summer "blahs" are upon us right now (which as a matter of course, happens every year during this season), with all these "green" 2yo's & 3yo's hogging up most mid-week cards, but other than that there are still some juicy situations that crop up and an alert player "does" have the opportunity to kash in on them, I know I do.....Just not at the Big-M any longer....Too bad about that...I just can't make any money there, any longer...too sad about that...

It used to be, most of the baby races were contested as "non-betting" events at the Big-M, and horses got their experience that way, or at lesser tracks, but now, they are taking up most of the card in middle of the week cards, and now are spilling over into the weekend cards....So with the shortage of good horses, that is what we are left with....That is boring, for sure....It used to be that there was an interspersing of 2yo and green 3yo races during any one day's particular card, but now it is almost "all" of those types dominating a full card....And we all know how predictable these types of races are.....

And, how about shortening the amount of races, on any card for most harness tracks...It seems that almost all of the tracks have now gone to 13-16 race cards.... For me, that is way "TOO" much racing, and it shows in the quality of the fields, that are going to post these days....Years ago when they were packing them in the stands, they had 9-races a day and that was it...

And you really can't say that the flats are any less boring or fruitful, because, as per another thread on this forum, the numbers say, that winning favorites are way up from previous years at most tracks.....Again, a shortage of good horses, I think, is the culprit....And yes, they already have "TURF" racing & different distance races.....

Too much racing, that is what I believe, and I will hold to that.....Bigger and more quality fields add up to better betting opportunities and "higher handles", imo....

So bring on the "turf buggies"....Maybe they could put spikes on the wheels for extra traction.......baloney ! ....Go Big-M, you show them how it should be done !

best,

[Pacingguy]

I think turf racing for harness racing can work; it is being done in Ireland and the UK and some races are still on the turf down under. That being said, we need to have more than an occasional turf race if it is going to happen. In addition, as we can see from the Meadowland's last attempt, it would be best if they started the races without the car; like some races are still started in Europe. I know, it kind of reminds you of steeplechase starts.

It would just break the monotony and it presents another option for introducing harness racing at tracks that have mixed meets. You can race the trotters over the turf at those tracks while the runners keep the dirt course.

[botster]

Originally Posted by Pacingguy

I think turf racing for harness racing can work; it is being done in Ireland and the UK and some races are still on the turf down under. That being said, we need to have more than an occasional turf race if it is going to happen. In addition, as we can see from the Meadowland's last attempt, it would be best if they started the races without the car; like some races are still started in Europe. I know, it kind of reminds you of steeplechase starts.

It would just break the monotony and it presents another option for introducing harness racing at tracks that have mixed meets. You can race the trotters over the turf at those tracks while the runners keep the dirt course.

Exactly...the options are widespread on what you can do with standardbreds on the grass.The fifty and over crowd who are the vast majority who still bet this game always hate change and stubbornly refuse any new ideas that will bring new people to the track.Away from the M1 a person under thirty at the track are never seen!

My wife the other day told her longtime girlfriend "that we were going to the Hambletonian at the M1 on the eighth". Now mind you, her friend is in her late thirties and has owned riding horses all her life and has been involved in rescueing these animals for twenty years or more. She was totally dumbfounded in what my wife was talking about, and this with her knowing that I have trained harness horses.

People under fifty who are not involved in it actively, do not even know this sport even exists...Turf could very well be the way to the survival of this sport.Not for nothing, but when all fans born in the thirties,fourties, and fifties pass on to the "great racetrack in the sky"...THEN WHAT?

[wilderness]

My wife the other day told her longtime girlfriend "that we were going to the Hambletonian at the M1 on the eighth". Now mind you, her friend is in her late thirties and has owned riding horses all her life and has been involved in rescueing these animals for twenty years or more. She was totally dumbfounded in what my wife was talking about, and this with her knowing that I have trained harness horses.

botster,
As big as baseball is, I'd be willing to wager that there are people that never heard of Ruth, Ghering, DiMaggio, Mantle, Aaron and many others.

Same for basketball; Russell, Wilt, and many more.

How about boxing; who ever heard of Jimmy Braddock before the recent Russell Crowe movie?

Harness racing?
Billy Haughton, Joe O'Brien, Joe Coates, John Hervey, P. W. Moser, Ted Hansom, on and on. . . wager I could list hundreds.

Many of the former names in harness racing, I'm able to see via my websites, searches across the internet whenever their names are mentioned in press releases.

"Our audience" is quite small. The majority of our audience is focused upon this race and this number, or this combination of numbers and could care less of the background of the participants or the race.

BTW, while your standing in the Hambo crowd?
Try asking a few people is they ever heard of William Rysdyk?
I'll wager you'll get more HUH's than you will answers.

[wilderness]

Since you'll be in Joisey?
How about some Joisey harness racing questions?

"Jersey Skeeter"?
Is there a track at Newark? or Trenton?
How about Johnson Park?
Joe Carr?

[botster]

Originally Posted by wilderness

botster,
As big as baseball is, I'd be willing to wager that there are people that never heard of Ruth, Ghering, DiMaggio, Mantle, Aaron and many others.

Same for basketball; Russell, Wilt, and many more.

How about boxing; who ever heard of Jimmy Braddock before the recent Russell Crowe movie?

Harness racing?
Billy Haughton, Joe O'Brien, Joe Coates, John Hervey, P. W. Moser, Ted Hansom, on and on. . . wager I could list hundreds.

Many of the former names in harness racing, I'm able to see via my websites, searches across the internet whenever their names are mentioned in press releases.

"Our audience" is quite small. The majority of our audience is focused upon this race and this number, or this combination of numbers and could care less of the background of the participants or the race.

BTW, while your standing in the Hambo crowd?
Try asking a few people is they ever heard of William Rysdyk?
I'll wager you'll get more HUH's than you will answers.

My friend, I am talking about the sport itself.You can go to a third world country where they don't have running water and I will bet you they have heard of basketball.

An audience would first need to be aware that the sport exists before they can be interested in the participants.The fact remains humans love to gamble and could care less about the participants anyway.

I will ask some of the younger persons in attendance if they would rather cash a twenty dollar ticket or a two hundred dollar ticket.I will get back to you on their response.

[Pacingguy]

I used to love racing at Johnson Park as well as New Egypt, Tinton Falls and other fair stops in New Jersey. Stopping the fair meets was a big mistake. True there was no betting, but what better was is there to introduce young people to the sport?

Go up to Goshen on the 4th of July and get over 2,000 people there. How many tracks get those many people showing for the live racing?

A penny saved and a dollar lost.

[wilderness]

Originally Posted by Pacingguy

I used to love racing at Johnson Park as well as New Egypt, Tinton Falls and other fair stops in New Jersey. Stopping the fair meets was a big mistake. True there was no betting, but what better was is there to introduce young people to the sport?

Go up to Goshen on the 4th of July and get over 2,000 people there. How many tracks get those many people showing for the live racing?

A penny saved and a dollar lost.

Pacingguy,
Your Tinton Falls references brings to mind an interesting recollection that took some digging and lots of luck on my part to sort things out for anothers inquiry.

Tinton Falls was the home of "Willowbrook Farm".

There was an earlier farm with a similar name ("Willow Brook") that was located at Little Falls, NJ. Walter Wilkins owned "Willow Brook" at one point.

They are both historical farms that are long gone.

Here's a 2000 article on the sale of Willowbrook at Tinton Falls

[beaucap]

Originally Posted by pandy

Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.

Let's face it Pandy..the internet caused the downfall of the attendence at the harness track's. I remember...(not that i'm old)...you had to go to the track to make a bet, even if it was one race. As long as you were there you bet the rest. It was exciting getting together, with your gambling friends and trying to figure out the winner. Now you sit alone at your computer and make that bet without going to the track. I know the internet is somewhat a good thing, making money from your service and kinda talking to other people about harness racing. Let's face it, how many on this site go to the track at least 15 to 20 times a month instead of betting on the net. Everyone always wants to do better no matter what they are involved in, so why do you think slower times are better? There has always been bad drives no matter how fast or slow the horses are traveling. As for turf racing i agree with LK, some horses are meant to stay on the dirt. The better paying horses are always going to be there.....as long as you wait for them

[senortout]

Maybe I'm dense or something, but wouldn't repeated running of harness races over the turf basically ruin the course? The ruts those small diameter tires would wear into the grass would be quite disruptive....in my opinion. Wouldn't safety be compromised if wheels got caught in some of the deeper ruts at critical stages(turns for example)? After all, some of the drivers weigh close to 180 or so....they do run harness races over a MUCH FIRMER surface than thoroughbred, due to the trailing buggy, N'EST PAS?

[Sea Biscuit]

Originally Posted by beaucap

Let's face it, how many on this site go to the track at least 15 to 20 times a month instead of betting on the net.

15 to 20 times a month!!!! You must be kidding. I go to the track maybe 4 or 5 times a YEAR and I speak for most of my harness buddies.

With all the data about horses, trainers drivers etc etc stored in my computer and video replays at a click of the button why go to the track at all when you can bet from the comfy of your home. On the rare occasions I do go to the track, I feel all lost without my friend the computer.

I am sure all those who sit and complain about low attendance at the tracks are making their bets from home too.

Sea Biscuit.

[Pacingguy]

Down under, if the turf course gets soft, they move the trotters to the main track; just like they do for the runners here. I think if you have a firm turf course you may not have the problem with ruts.

Absolutely, the best horses would remain on the dirt. However, if you have a horse that is not doing well, racing on the turf may revive a career that was going no where. Horses for courses....

As for Willowbrook Farms that I remember; it was also known as 'The Home of the Hobos'.

[botster]

Originally Posted by Pacingguy

Down under, if the turf course gets soft, they move the trotters to the main track; just like they do for the runners here. I think if you have a firm turf course you may not have the problem with ruts.

Absolutely, the best horses would remain on the dirt. However, if you have a horse that is not doing well, racing on the turf may revive a career that was going no where. Horses for courses....

As for Willowbrook Farms that I remember; it was also known as 'The Home of the Hobos'.

Pappy you are a wise man.This has been done successfully already for years, so let's not squash the idea thinking this is some wacky idea someone thought of on a whim two weeks ago!

Put the cheaper horses on the grass, let them go over a mile, and watch the fans come back to the M1.Just move them back to the dirt when needed like the T-BREDS.This type of racing has been way too long overdue not to come to fruition here in the states.

The M1 is ready to go under, THE IMPOSSIBLE IS VERY NEAR! This needs to be done!

[botster]

Pandy is right on about the fast times resulting in a huge part of the downfall of the sport.Remember the Meads back in the eightees, things were totally different back then.The times were signifigantly slower and closers were way more prevalent and so was the bigger payoffs.They did alter the turns which have hurt the closers, but that goes along with all the other idiotic decisions they have made over the years. Faster times along with unfair preracing by the slew of guys we see today have made the M1 more speed favoring than ever.It's way to easy to pick the fastest horses resulting in all time low payoffs.

Slower times directly cause better racing for everyone with the exception of breeders.Will it bring people back to the M1?. Yes, I said it before and I will say it again.Gamblers and handicappers, both want to see good payoffs otherwise they will continue to exit the game.Is the bettor interested in faster times? NO, speed directly causes lower payoffs, resulting in persons going elsewhere for their gambling needs.

[Pacingguy]

I used to be a purist and loved the routine of the mile race on the dirt. What changed my mind? The fact we have so many favorites coming in. I am not talking about the 3-1 to 9-2 favorites, I am talking about the 9-5 and lower odds. Anything which will get the payoffs higher need to be considered.

There was a comment about too many races on a card 13-16 races. Yes, there is too much racing but I suspect the bigger problem than too many races on one card is the fact it takes to darn long to get through the card. People have little free time these days. Get a 12 race card started by 7:00pm and over by 9:30 at the latest. If you want to play more, there are simulcast signals or other tracks you can play. Realistically, how many tracks can you play in one day, at least at the same time? Remember when you were younger you went to a movie and dinner with a date? With the current dragging out of post times, it is the track or something else, not both.