Ask a Trainer.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

a guy that puts any type of money into this game and is looking for results. the racing manager better be a good one too that looks out for the owners interests and not the trainer's.

anybody that's putting that kind of money/investment into horses better be calling the shots along with his trainer. If the racing manager doesn't have a large amount of skin in the game he's a liability not an asset. I dealt with numerous large partnerships with silent partners and a manager. major bad deal. and on top of that, you don't get to educate the silent partners and get them into the game on their own as a general rule.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

you can compare the need for a manager to a jock agent. the good jockey's need agents, the bad one don't have agents. the good owners all have racing managers today. the Krasners who have been in the business for years and are very smart people have racing managers. i don't think those people are stupid by any means. i deal with some big owners that have managers as well and they are very successful.

jockey's have agents because they don't have the time to hustle mounts nor do they have the desire. You can have a partnership spokesperson that deals with the trainer on a regular basis, that's fine because the trainer doesn't have the time to deal with all the owners every day. but the big decisions need to be made by the whole partnership. The big operations with managers you speak of are doing that because they have so many horses and don't have the time to look after things as needed. But you can bet the ultimate/tough decisions aren't being made by the racing manager.

[northerndancer]

Racing Manager.....

Yes if you are an owner from overseas then having a presence on the ground can be beneficial;

Yes if you have a larger enough operation. For example Mike Rogers of Adena Springs was an outstanding racing manager for Frank Stronach;

No way if you are a group of individuals who have come together to own a few horses. You do not need the layer of cost and being shielded from the information flow which will allow you to develop your foundation knowledge;

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by northerndancer

Racing Manager.....

Yes if you are an owner from overseas then having a presence on the ground can be beneficial;

Yes if you have a larger enough operation. For example Mike Rogers of Adena Springs was an outstanding racing manager for Frank Stronach;

No way if you are a group of individuals who have come together to own a few horses. You do not need the layer of cost and being shielded from the information flow which will allow you to develop your foundation knowledge;

i agree with that. when i sell horses to the big guys, there is always a racing manager involved that do a great job.

[TurfRuler]

How would a trainer describe the form cycle of thoroughbreds. After a layoff what should a person look for when searching for clues as to whether a thoroughbred is ready to win at first asking after a layoff or how many races should be viewed as playable before a horse should win or should be discarded as payable because the thoroughbred has gone off form?"

Thoroughbreds having trouble lines in their past performance, whether they are bumped, off slow, in tight, etc. and lose, should the next time they run be a playable race because of the trouble or if they are in form, coming off a winning race and their next race they are troubled is their form still good or should they be discarded as playable?

I've noticed that when horses have trouble and they scamper to the lead and fade, or they are bumped, jostled or pinched to the back of the pack then for reason I can not phantom they seem to go off form after the trouble.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by TurfRuler

How would a trainer describe the form cycle of thoroughbreds. After a layoff what should a person look for when searching for clues as to whether a thoroughbred is ready to win at first asking after a layoff or how many races should be viewed as playable before a horse should win or should be discarded as payable because the thoroughbred has gone off form?"

Thoroughbreds having trouble lines in their past performance, whether they are bumped, off slow, in tight, etc. and lose, should the next time they run be a playable race because of the trouble or if they are in form, coming off a winning race and their next race they are troubled is their form still good or should they be discarded as playable?

I've noticed that when horses have trouble and they scamper to the lead and fade, or they are bumped, jostled or pinched to the back of the pack then for reason I can not phantom they seem to go off form after the trouble.

the only thing you can go by in regards to coming back off a layoff is how successful the trainer is with this type of thing and if the horse has had long enough works to have any shot at being fit enough. In regards to the trouble lines, I would go look at the videos of those races and see exactly what happened. trouble lines can be very misleading.

[jpren37]

Chadk66, Northerndancer, Lamboguy, Cannon Shell and Mineshaft (sorry if I left out any other trainers; please feel free to reply also).

In regard to works following a layoff (let's say 9 months). How would you prepare your horse for his return in terms of #, spacing and distance of works and what would you have to see in those works to feel comfortable to enter a race. Please separate sprints from routes if there is a difference.

thanks

[lamboguy]

i am not a hands on trainer, our horses would be on the farm in Ocala. what we generally do is start by jogging, then galloping. after 3 to 4 weeks of that we might work the horse 1/4 from the pole. if everything goes fine, we will go to the gate and stand the horse a few times until they show that they are not nervous, then we will pop them out of the gate and work them an easy 3/8. if that goes good we will send the horse to a trainer at the race track and let them work on getting the horse fit on the bigger oval. when our horses need time off, they all come home because there are plenty of round pens and paddocks for them to clear their heads out. if they have an injury and need to be in the stall all day there are plenty of people to watch over those horses and take care of their needs in bigger stalls than you will find in a race track.

[chadk66]

well that's a hard question to answer. basically it depends on the horse. there is no "one size fits all" approach to coming back from a layoff. If a horse was laid off from an injury that will change your approach completely. But in a nutshell you have to put some good long gallops in them to make sure they have a foundation to handle the speed work. Distance doesn't hurt horses, speed does. So if you put speed in them too soon they'll right back at the ranch. If my horses can't handle daily two to three mile gallops without much effort they aren't going to handle any speed work. My sprinters I would start working them short and build up to 5/8's to 3/4's with strong gallop outs. (older horses I'm referring to here). Route horses I would build up to mile works. The route horses would also get more two minute mile gallops also. But bottom line is the horse will tell you what and when. That's the art involved in training, listening to what the horse tells you what he wants and needs. When I have more time I'll give you a long, drawn out story of a horse I claimed one time. It has some very interesting things that went on and how every little thing can mean something.

[Mineshaft]

Thanks jpren37 but im not a trainer just an owner.


Just depends on the horse. After all the long gallops and jogs, when your ready to start working the horse this is what I would do.


Im putting 8-9 works in the horse every 10-14 days. Start off with (2) 3 furlong works then (3) 4 furlong works then (3) 5 furlong works then one 6 furlong work. I would also work in company in some of those works and also one work would be out the gate either 4 or 5 furlong work.

[northerndancer]

Originally Posted by jpren37

Chadk66, Northerndancer, Lamboguy, Cannon Shell and Mineshaft (sorry if I left out any other trainers; please feel free to reply also).

In regard to works following a layoff (let's say 9 months). How would you prepare your horse for his return in terms of #, spacing and distance of works and what would you have to see in those works to feel comfortable to enter a race. Please separate sprints from routes if there is a difference.

thanks

jpren37 I am not a trainer just an owner.... from my experiences with having horses off the layoff my trainers (and I agree) that you need to take your time with the horse. Allow the horse to develop a sound strong foundation under him before asking him to do too much. You have to have patience with a horse coming off a layoff.

Once the horse is ready to work as Mineshaft stated gap your works accordingly.

The horse will tell you when they are ready to move forward. Remember you gave them 9 months off for a reason so respect the decision you made to give the time off and be reasonable with your expectations for the horse as it moves forward in training.

[jpren37]

thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I guess what I was trying to get at is something like the following hypothetical:

A horse is coming off a 9 month layoff. As a handicapper, your given a workout line in the pp's to evaluate (let's assume for the purposes of this post that the information shown is accurate). If today's race is 6 furlong sprint, should you be looking for works that contain at least a 5 furlong work? If the works are not evenly spaced is that a negative? If the last work is more than 10 days from today's race is that a negative? If the times recorded are accurate, when is a work too fast/slow? Do you work a stakes horse differently then you would a claimer? Are route returns treated differently?

Are there Heuristics or rules of thumb that one should look for or is each horse so unique that no rules of thumb apply?

I know i'm asking a lot so responses to only a few of these questions would be much appreciated

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by jpren37

thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I guess what I was trying to get at is something like the following hypothetical:

A horse is coming off a 9 month layoff. As a handicapper, your given a workout line in the pp's to evaluate (let's assume for the purposes of this post that the information shown is accurate). If today's race is 6 furlong sprint, should you be looking for works that contain at least a 5 furlong work? If the works are not evenly spaced is that a negative? If the last work is more than 10 days from today's race is that a negative? If the times recorded are accurate, when is a work too fast/slow? Do you work a stakes horse differently then you would a claimer? Are route returns treated differently?

Are there Heuristics or rules of thumb that one should look for or is each horse so unique that no rules of thumb apply?

I know i'm asking a lot so responses to only a few of these questions would be much appreciated

i am dealing with a horse that had an injury and was out 8 months. by design she ran her first race back with out a gate work and she got nervous behind the gate and wound up coming out bad. the next race she also ran a sprint race and came out of the gate good and got beat less than 3 lengths. her next race might be sunday in Saratoga going long if she gets in. if she wins the race, i can tell you that the plan worked. almost all the time i make sure the horse pops out of the gate before they make their return start. Parx racing has a rule that you have to do that.

i would say if you don't see a gate work from a layoff horse, you don't want to put your money on them.

[chadk66]

Originally Posted by jpren37

thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I guess what I was trying to get at is something like the following hypothetical:

A horse is coming off a 9 month layoff. As a handicapper, your given a workout line in the pp's to evaluate (let's assume for the purposes of this post that the information shown is accurate). If today's race is 6 furlong sprint, should you be looking for works that contain at least a 5 furlong work? If the works are not evenly spaced is that a negative? If the last work is more than 10 days from today's race is that a negative? If the times recorded are accurate, when is a work too fast/slow? Do you work a stakes horse differently then you would a claimer? Are route returns treated differently?

Are there Heuristics or rules of thumb that one should look for or is each horse so unique that no rules of thumb apply?

I know i'm asking a lot so responses to only a few of these questions would be much appreciated

everything is really centered around the horse returning from layoffs. each trainer also has their own philosophy. But yes regular works would be a good thing to see, however weather plays a roll in it. If your bringing a horse back from an injury your not going to work on a questionable track. so you'd have to research why a horse has a glitch in his workout schedule. I wouldn't use a horse that didn't show at least a five furlong work before running 3/4 but you just can't trust that he hadn't even through there isn't any listed works at that distance. The last year I trained I had an older mare that was laid off for a few months over the winter. She was a MN bred and there was a stakes race for her about two months into the meet going 1-1/16. I started her back training in Feb. on a high speed treadmill. Went six weeks on that then it was nice enough outside to start galloping. Then in april moved to cby. Got several nice works in her and ran her 6F opening weekend. She's a better route horse but ran third I think flying at the wire. Three weeks later ran her a mile against open company and she was flying at the end and got up for second. This was all a setup for the stakes. She then won the stakes race quite easily drawing off at the end. She was an easy trainer that got alot out of gallops and works in the morning.

[Clocker]

A question out of curiosity as much as anything. I was just looking at a maiden claimer race that had two 4 y.o. maidens, one with 12 races lifetime. You see these types often in 3 and up maiden races. Why does an owner spend the money to keep a horse like that in training for 2 or even 3 years, especially once it is dropped from Mdn. Sp. Wts. to claiming and still shows nothing? Some kind of emotional attachment?

And how often does a 4 y.o. that breaks its maiden after a dozen or more races ever go on to win a race at the next level?