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Old 10-15-2018, 11:43 AM   #31
Gorrex
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Compared to what it should be.. that really is a cumbersome process.

Why should the track have to call anyone to know what bet was made and when? (Every modern sports book can.. and most share data to some degree)

Why can't a track run algorithms on each wager BEFORE its accepted to compare wagering patterns on multiple sources and find trouble bettors or manipulation? (Every modern sports book can...)

Same simple reason.. it has financial value to them and it doesn't in a parimutuel environment.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:26 PM   #32
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What is cumbersome about it?

I could call a person that works in the mutuel department at Keeneland and ask them how much their handle was from, as an example, Cantebury Park on Saturday. They could give me the amount almost immediately. With a slight delay they could tell me what they handled on the QE II race. With another slight delay they could tell me what they handled in the WPS pools on that race.

For the purpose of on track wagering they could tell me which tote machine handled the most money on the day, how much was handled on that machine within the last two minutes of wagering of a specific race, how much was accounted for by a specific bettor. See where I'm going?

Sure an upgrade to the system would make the process of tracking wagers more seamless, however the current system still does have that capability, regardless of how archaic the system may be. It can be done, every wagering dollar, regardless of the pool it is intended for, HAS to be accounted for, it IS every race track's, simulcast venue or ADW provider's livelihood.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:38 PM   #33
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That is the STANDARD in the auto industry, the aerospace industry.....has been for years. It is not unrealistic. It is the way of life.

I once had to supply a corrective action on I was going to improve my part per million rate of 20.

The key to achieving it is to stop whining and making excuses and just do it.

The racing industry is a joke.

"Standard," perhaps. But never achievable.

Tom, I know you understand manufacturing. There is an expectation of less-than-perfection in every batch of components produced. And nobody can test every component before it is put into place.

Even if the expected failure rate is minuscule, and even if several components have to fail at the same time, occasionally the planets will line up to produce a failure.

In context... It doesn't matter how many safeguards are in place. Someone - even if it turns out to be the cousin of the brother-in-law of the best friend of the guy who designed the system - SOMEONE will say, "I've got an idea for how to outsmart the system," and get away with it until they are caught.
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Old 10-15-2018, 03:17 PM   #34
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So your solution is to just allow this type of BS to happen?
How many times a day do the planets have to line up to account for all the timing failure we see?

Zero defects is not always possible, but the goal of having zero is mandatory. Racing is happy to just shrug off pretty much everything.

Racing is a joke.
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Old 10-15-2018, 03:38 PM   #35
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It shouldn't matter if it increases handle. If the tote isn't secure, it needs to be upgraded. If it is relying on people to press a button, it should be upgraded. It is part of the business.

I'm sure plenty of businesses could be run cheaper and save money if they didn't care about securing our money and our information.
Agree that it needs an upgrade, but also would imagine them looking to justify it.
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Old 10-15-2018, 04:16 PM   #36
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I put in all bets before the first race I play. I will cancel 1-2 minutes before post time if my horse goes off below acceptable odds.


It is less stressful and simple than waiting to see if the 9-2 ML horse I want to bet will stay at 5-2 or higher.


The KISS system would work with the issue discussed.


Just lock the betting when the first horse enters the gate.


No need to change anything else. Since they won't anyway.


Simple.
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Old 10-15-2018, 04:32 PM   #37
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It’s just the same old crap in every one of these complaint threads. When the guy says it’s post time. The tote should be locked. Before the first horse is even walked into position. If you get shut out, it’s your own fault.
I believe this is the correct answer. The reason that closing the pools currently requires manual intervention right now is because we're trying to sync it up with the gate opening. Moving it to when the first horse enters would be the same issue. Both of those are arbitrary conditions which are impossible to automate within the current systems. So we need someone watching with their hand hovering over a button, and slapping it when that arbitrary condition is met.

However, all of the totes can automatically lock at 0 MTP with no upgrades or new development needed. This is already implemented in every system as an emergency fail-safe...if the system detects that the stewards button is not connected to the system and the race is at 0 MTP, the pools automatically lock.

So just make that the standard. Countdown hits 0, pools close, totally automated. Tracks don't want to do it because they're afraid it'll hurt handle. I guess they think bettors are truly so stupid that they won't adjust...but I'm pretty sure they would.

It also has the added benefit of eliminating odds changing during the race. Between the timer hitting 0 and the race actually starting, the system will have ample time to calculate all of the last-second money and display final odds before the gate opens.

Locking at 0 makes all the sense in the world, and kills multiple birds with the same stone. So it's unlikely to ever happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorrex
Tracks cannot see the actual wagers being made into their pools unless they request that information and most times its not searchable (lucky if its not just a printed PDF file).

There WAS a system being designed to do that, but it was expensive and relied on parties with no benefit from it to pay for it.
I'm not sure if you're referring to the TRPB's transaction audit files, but if so that system was completed. All totes are sending a file to the TRPB at the close of every race, and those files contain the individual wagers from every source.

I don't know if the individual tracks have access to that system to query information. But the data is definitely available in a centralized database....it just needs to be properly utilized.
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:45 PM   #38
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So your solution is to just allow this type of BS to happen?
How many times a day do the planets have to line up to account for all the timing failure we see?

Zero defects is not always possible, but the goal of having zero is mandatory. Racing is happy to just shrug off pretty much everything.

Racing is a joke.
Of course, you are right. The integrity of the game is in doubt and the people in power are actually questioning the importance of that relative to cost.

Racing has illustrated their lack of concern at every integrity crisis that has arisen. For the good old boy thieves it is business as usual. Until that changes, racing can never be a major league sport.

... which of course means that racing will never be anything but expensive bush league.

If a guy cheats, he should be done for life from coast-to-coast.

They laugh at all of us bettors because we're the suckers that keep playing.

As for zero defects...
I'm simply being realistic about our chances of them improving anything.

Remember, as we (old school horse players) continue to age, the crowd and wagering will thin out. Once our generation has passed, the game will die completely.

God willing, I'll be around to see them turn out the lights.
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Old 10-16-2018, 06:29 AM   #39
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The audit files are a start yes and I agree they can be utilized in numerous ways that they currently are not and the access to it is weak at best.

I was referring to the wager protocol or whatever it was called that has been batted around for countless years. If something like that was implemented well and all relevant sources had proper access it would be a game changer for all of these types of issues.

Though you do bring up another valid point... I doubt many people here know anything about the TRPB audit files, chrims audit files and other integrity initiatives that have been done. Doesn't help much with pereception to have something that no patron knows exists.

While racing still has many issues this is again a case of it not being nearly as bad as the perception of it.
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Last edited by Gorrex; 10-16-2018 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:49 AM   #40
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Excellent point. Meet Fuss...
I actually butchered the facts as BH laid them out.

NO late wagers on the 10/7 pool. Except the twinspires bettor who did bet but canceled

Some late wagers on the Oct 13 pool, but none of the late bets were winners.


Quote:
For the Oct. 13 pool, NYRA said it would refund all wagers. No such refunds have been made on the Oct. 7 pool, where NYRA officials said they found no evidence of wagers coming in after the start of the wager. In the Oct. 13 pool, NYRA said some wagers were made after the start of the first race, but they were not winning wagers

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Spokesmen for the New York Racing Association and the New York State Gaming Commission both said in the days after the Oct. 7 wager that there was no evidence of past posting—wagers made after the start of a race or, in this case, the start of the first race in the sequence. On Oct. 14 NYRA director of communications Pat McKenna said no money came into the Oct. 7 pool late.
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:37 PM   #41
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I actually butchered the facts as BH laid them out.

NO late wagers on the 10/7 pool. Except the twinspires bettor who did bet but canceled

Some late wagers on the Oct 13 pool, but none of the late bets were winners.
Whenever an issue like this comes up they always tell us "no late bets were winners."

I wonder.
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Old 10-16-2018, 06:01 PM   #42
AltonKelsey
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O
God willing, I'll be around to see them turn out the lights.



I'd prefer they turn out the lights the day after I go.
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