Another One for the Stewards to Review

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When they are ballsy enough to stiff horses this blatantly in public view...can you imagine what they do "out of sight on the backside"?

You mean stick needles in their backsides?

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by PressThePace

This pretty much sums up how I feel as well. It's not as if we're talking about something marginal here...it's a no-brainer. But by the same token, I must ask the question, is anyone really surprised? When have racing officials put the interest of the betting public ahead of the horsemen?

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

[VigorsTheGrey]

One would think jockeys were horsemen...I guess I don't understand what defines a horse man and what separates the two...some jockeys have gone on to become trainers like Vann Belvoir for one...what happened to him when he became a trainer? In Harness racing, the driver is a trainer also...are they not horsemen?

[PressThePace]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

With even more respect, I think you're splitting hairs in this instance because I have a notion that you knew what was meant.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

I'd like to hear you say that in the jockey's room.

[overthehill]

when i first looked at the race in the stretch i was a ltille curious why he didnt try to angle the horse out and there also seem something funny about how he was riding the horse. then upon closer review i realize that he is not sitting in on the horse i the stretch he is tushy is obviously raise up from the saddle. like is he is quasi trying to pull the horse up as opposed to trying to drive the horse to the wire. unless he had an equipment issue in deep stretch i think his riding style will be difficult to explain. i would clearly say he is not persevering with the horse.

[overthehill]

even when you stiff horse you have to give the appearance of somewhat trying. its offensive to see such a blatant non-try for the win. I think in most venues you will get fined for standing up before the finish the line. and this guy has his seat out of the saddle for at least a quarter mile before the finish.

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

And there are trainers that aren't horsemen. I worked for a very successful trainer in the 80's who would go from his office to the grandstand to watch the horses train. Never came into the shed to check horses. He paid people to do that. But he was a hell of a trainer.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

One would think jockeys were horsemen...I guess I don't understand what defines a horse man and what separates the two...some jockeys have gone on to become trainers like Vann Belvoir for one...what happened to him when he became a trainer? In Harness racing, the driver is a trainer also...are they not horsemen?

Jockey's and horsemen are two very different categories at thoroughbred tracks. I think they are considered horsemen in Equestrian circles and I don't know at all about harness. I can see why it might be confusing.
If a retired jockey becomes a trainer, does that make him a horsemen? No. Not in the eyes of most trainers.
In the truer sense of the words trainer and horseman, if you pass all the tests required you can become a trainer. A horseman is a trainer that is accomplished, astute, and has a true understanding of what a trainer and caretaker should be.
Just about anyone that wants to, can get a trainers license. That does not mean they are horseman. At least not IMO.
The day I received my trainers license, too me, I was a trainer. Over time, as I learned more and gained experience, I would like to think I became a horseman. I think that it would be up to others that observed my body of work to declare that. It wouldn't be up to me.

I hope that makes sense.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by PressThePace

With even more respect, I think you're splitting hairs in this instance because I have a notion that you knew what was meant.

Certainly did not mean to offend you.

It is just that there is a real difference when you work in those circles.

I was trying to make you aware of that. That's all.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

I'd like to hear you say that in the jockey's room.

Riders know full well they are not horsemen.

It is two different things on the backside.

They would not have a problem with me saying that.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

With all due respect sir, jockeys are NOT horsemen.

They never have been nor will they ever be.

Not all jockeys are horsemen.

Many many are.

I could list a hundred.

Probably many more than that.

I'll go for just a few that immediately popped into my head.

Jack Kaenel

Pete Anderson

Vann Belvoir

Ron Hansen

Johnny Longden

Bill Shoemaker

Johnny Adams

Kenny Black

Wesley Ward

Robbie Davis

Frank Gomez

Jacinto Vazquez

John Tammaro

Rosie Napravnik

Hell that's a list while nodding back to sleep.

Might be 500 - 1000

Desperately weak post!

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

And there are trainers that aren't horsemen. I worked for a very successful trainer in the 80's who would go from his office to the grandstand to watch the horses train. Never came into the shed to check horses. He paid people to do that. But he was a hell of a trainer.

Very true.

There are plenty of trainers that do that. One just went into the HOF.
If that is what makes them successful, that is fine. They can be great trainers.
But , I am sure we would agree that trainers like that, are not horsemen in the truest sense of the word.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Not all jockeys are horsemen.

Many many are.

I could list a hundred.

Probably many more than that.

I'll go for just a few that immediately popped into my head.

Jack Kaenel

Pete Anderson

Vann Belvoir

Ron Hansen

Johnny Longden

Bill Shoemaker

Johnny Adams

Kenny Black

Wesley Ward

Robbie Davis

Frank Gomez

Jacinto Vazquez

John Tammaro

Rosie Napravnik

Hell that's a list while nodding back to sleep.

Might be 500 - 1000

Desperately weak post!

I responded to "jockeys are horsemen". You agreed, then bashed me.

Some jocks went on to become horsemen but if you want to call all jocks horsemen, go right ahead.


I won't. And never will. That is a joke.

I knew John Tammaro very well for decades. He would laugh at that assertion.

I knew Kenny when he had the bug. A horseman at seventeen? Really?
Your kidding right?

And Jack Kaenel, as tremendous as he was at 15 would be the first to tell you he was not a horseman until years later.

Give me a break Vic.

Either way, please stick your opinion about my post Vic.

Go find someone else to heckle or as you would say, troll.

And remember the pearls of wisdom from a couple of months ago you posted, all trainers lie!

Go tell that to the trainers on that list.

[Donttellmeshowme]

All trainers lie
All jocks lie