Religious

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Good Morning, Mr. Light. I have a question for you about love: In Jesus' parable about the Good Samaritan, did he teach us about worldly love or godly love? Let's look at that parable closely:

Luke 10:25-37
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" 27 And he answered and said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 28 And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." 29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30 Jesus replied and said, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho; and he fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went off leaving him half dead. 31 "And by chance a certain priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 "And likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 "But a certain Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34 and came to him, and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 "And on the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return, I will repay you.' 36 "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?" 37 And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." And Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."
NASB

So, tell me, Light: You have told us repeatedly that divine love requires no object; therefore do you interpret Jesus' parable as teaching us about how to love in an inferior, worldly way? But if he is, then how, specifically, is the love the Samaritan manifested toward the crime victim inferior to divine love? How could the Samaritan's love that sought the welfare and well being of another human being be inferior to a divine love that makes no such demands to seek out the welfare of others? It seems to me that a love that is practiced is infinitely more valuable than one that is kept bottled up inside oneself for self-serving or self-seeking purposes. A love that seeks its own [reward] is worthless and, indeed, ungodly (1Cor 13:4). This is why Jesus also said to the self-righteous law expert "Do this and live"! He didn't tell the guy to go home and meditate in his prayer closet and get in touch with the divine so that he can experience some ecstatic feeling! He told him to go out and do something that has practical value to others -- to manifest love in a practical way -- in a way that would benefit others.

Your idea of what divine love is all about is far off the mark and it totally worthless both in this life and in the life to come. If anyone does not love as Jesus taught in the parable, he will not inherit eternal life. That is the very crystal clear teaching of this parable.

Read carefully and you won't waste my time and yours with silly questions.

A) Divine love does not demand an object to exist. That means when there was God and nothing else, LOVE in Divine Form existed. Is that so hard to understand? No. Good. lets move on.

B) Now if you were the only one to be alive after a nuclear war obliterated this planet and all objects , would you exude Love with no objects? No, because you need an object because your modus operandi is NOT divine love. You only know worldly love and without your worldly objects your love is out of business. Capiche? Bueno

C) Now a third scenario. You are the last person on the planet. With no alternative left, you sit down and go within. You connect to yourself. Another Sufi saying is I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

If you find God, you find Divine love as in A (above) since God is Divine love. Simple. Now you are experiencing Divine Love without an object requirement which I have told you a zillion times and you can't understand

The above example you gave does not contradict Divine love's nature. Divine love is larger than worldly love or the love of a "good Samaritan".

For you to put Divine Love down as you did above is to put God down. Good luck with that.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Light

Another Sufi saying is I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

When I was younger we called that narcissism.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

When I was younger we called that narcissism.

What you are talking about is Egoic. What I am talking about is suspension of ego in which you enter "God consciousness".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Read carefully and you won't waste my time and yours with silly questions.

A) Divine love does not demand an object to exist. That means when there was God and nothing else, LOVE in Divine Form existed. Is that so hard to understand? No. Good. lets move on.

B) Now if you were the only one to be alive after a nuclear war obliterated this planet and all objects , would you exude Love with no objects? No, because you need an object because your modus operandi is NOT divine love. You only know worldly love and without your worldly objects your love is out of business. Capiche? Bueno

C) Now a third scenario. You are the last person on the planet. With no alternative left, you sit down and go within. You connect to yourself. Another Sufi saying is I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

If you find God, you find Divine love as in A (above) since God is Divine love. Simple. Now you are experiencing Divine Love without an object requirement which I have told you a zillion times and you can't understand

The above example you gave does not contradict Divine love's nature. Divine love is larger than worldly love or the love of a "good Samaritan".

For you to put Divine Love down as you did above is to put God down. Good luck with that.

Just to be clear: So Jesus was teaching the lawyer how to love with a markedly inferior love? This Jesus, in whom you say you believe, was clueless, in other words?

And I addressed point number one many moons ago. Before God created the universe God did have objects for his love, i.e. each of the persons in the Godhead. And I would also add (if I may be so bold) that God loved all his chosen people -- all whose names were written in the Book of Life -- before any of them were created. Read carefully Rom 9:10-13.

And if the world ended and there was no other human being left, that person should still love God. God didn't die in your nuclear war, did he?

The irrefutable fact of the matter is that what the scripture teaches about God, his love and man's moral obligation to love -- both the Creator and his fellow man -- all is in complete harmony. There was never a time in eternity when God didn't have objects for his love. Never!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

God is omnipresent which means it is in things too. There is a Sufi saying: [b]“God sleeps in the rock, dreams in the plant, stirs in the animal, and awakens in man.

Being omnipresent does not mean He is in all things. Christians, for example, are the only ones gifted with God's indwelling Holy Spirit.

Liar. You don't believe what was always "The Kingdom is within you" which was in the Bible for 2000 years and only changed in the last 35 years to suit superficial phony religious people like you who have no ability to go beyond their own egos.

You sound very angry today. Not in touch with your god? Not feeling his love today? Of course, you're not. God doesn't love YOU. You have admitted this. God's love knows no objects. So, how can you feel the love of anyone who does not love you!? Would you care to explain that to us?

Just because I don't argee with your interpretation of the passage doesn't doesn't make me a liar or an evil person. People can, in fact, can have honest disagreements. However, in the case of the Lukian passage, about one dozen arguments (between myself and Overlay) have been presented that soundly refute that poor translation. As stated before, most translations actually have made a note in their margins to alert readers to an alternate translation. You have utterly failed to refute one single argument. Here...allow me to show you how pathetically weak your interpretation of that passage is with a question which you won't be able to answer: Did the disciples, who were with Jesus when he spoke to the Pharisees, also have the kingdom of God "within them"? Think carefully before you answer.

Again you miss the point. I am referring to divine love not worldly love. Parent children relationships are worldly.

No, you missed mine! Paul was referring to godly love, not worldly love. But even if he had been teaching us how to love like the world does (although I don't know why he would have to teach Christians about the world's ways when everywhere he tells us to avoid its godless ways!!!), then this would still make Paul's kind of love markedly superior to your idea of "divine" love which has no worth. Your "divine" love has no practical value. It does not seek to protect. It does not seek to serve. It does not seek the welfare of others. It does not seek to minister to anyone's needs. It does not seek the comfort of others, etc., etc. Love without any object is less than worthless! Or as Greyfox essentially pointed out: Your kind of divine love is simply an expression of narcissism. You deceive yourself into thinking that you have slayed your ego when in fact all you are doing is inflating it -- by thinking you are a little god -- or maybe the Big God?! (Did you know that Satan once thought he was God?)

God is always there. It is we who have to open our eyes.

But we are all born blind and cannot open our own eyes! As Jesus himself taught..."because you say you see, your blindness remains..., i.e your sin remains. (Jn 9:41)

I never said that. I said there are many evil doers using the Bible to justify heinous acts. (BTW, do you have a reading comprehension issue?)

You stereotyped all believes in with the "evil doers". Never once have you acknowledged what good God-fearing, pious Christians have done in the world. I believe you so hate the God of the bible and his true people that you lumped them in with all the apostates in the church.

You know nothing.

I know this: Jesus (you know...the one you say you believe in...) warned people to enter the kingdom by the narrow door.

Luke 13:24
24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
NASB

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Being omnipresent does not mean He is in all things. Christians, for example, are the only ones gifted with God's indwelling Holy Spirit.

Webster defines Omnipresent as: present in all places at all times

If your God is not omnipresent then he is not God.

Originally Posted by boxcar

God doesn't love YOU.

We are all children of God. And since God is Love as stated in the Bible, we are ALL loved.

Originally Posted by boxcar

However, in the case of the Lukian passage, about one dozen arguments (between myself and Overlay) have been presented that soundly refute that poor translation.

Doesn't mean your argument is correct.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Did the disciples, who were with Jesus when he spoke to the Pharisees, also have the kingdom of God "within them"? Think carefully before you answer.

Let me answer that with another quote from Jesus :

"Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS"

But wait, where is Greyfox's's narcissism accusation now? Must not like Sufis too much. There is no difference between this comment by Jesus and The Sufis:
I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your "divine" love has no practical value. It does not seek to protect. It does not seek to serve. It does not seek the welfare of others. It does not seek to minister to anyone's needs. It does not seek the comfort of others, etc., etc.

There is no such thing as 2 different Divine Love's. There is only one.Yours is conditional, mine is not. Divine Love cannot exist on a conditional basis. So your Divine love is bogus.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Love without any object is less than worthless!

That ignorant comment is because you have not experienced Divine love. You only know worldly love. Divine Love is an entity in itself, much like the air that we breathe. It doesn't care if there is and object to breathe it or not, it just is.

Originally Posted by boxcar

You stereotyped all believes in with the "evil doers". Never once have you acknowledged what good God-fearing, pious Christians have done in the world.

Are you one of the "Good Christians"? You sound like a bad apple. The only reason you do not do "evil deeds" is because you are not in a position of power. If you were, I would,not put it past you to do "evil deeds" because your "love" is in your head not in your heart just like all the rapist priests and evangelical preachers who urged U.S. presidents to kill, kill, kill in the name of the Lord.

Originally Posted by boxcar

I know this: Jesus (you know...the one you say you believe in...) warned people to enter the kingdom by the narrow door.

That leaves you out.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The reason you and all other unbelievers hate divine revelation is because it restrains sinners' carnal imagination. Everyone dearly loves (since we're on the topic of love) to be a law unto themselves. This is why people reject revelation. No one want's to submit to it. After all -- sinners love the darkness. Sinners think they're great free thinkers and free people, when in fact they are enslaved to the sins they love so much.

You couldn't possibly be more correct on this one point.

People can rationalize any behavior they want by saying "who is to judge".

Of course, most people don't go that far. They will rationalize everything they do and condemn all the things they don't do.

The same people that have sex with 100s of partners, spread disease, abort babies, use drugs regularly etc.. will scream and yell if someone uses a gas guzzling car or enjoys a Big Gulp. They will break into total hissy fit if someone says they believe in God and scripture. To say that is to say there is a judge.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

You couldn't possibly be more correct on this one point.

People can rationalize any behavior they want by saying "who is to judge".

Of course, most people don't go that far. They will rationalize everything they do and condemn all the things they don't do.

The same people that have sex with 100s of partners, spread disease, abort babies, use drugs regularly etc.. will scream and yell if someone uses a gas guzzling car or enjoys a Big Gulp. They will break into total hissy fit if someone says they believe in God and scripture. To say that is to say there is a judge.

Are the "evil doers" the only ones who reject the notion of a "judging God"?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Are the "evil doers" the only ones who reject the notion of a "judging God"?

No.

Obviously, some very thoughtful people have good reasons to reject God. I have little issue with them. If you think that everyone that believes in God is "delusional" but go about your business living your life not giving the "believers" any grief, why should anyone have a problem with that?

I just think that people like that should also be bright enough to look at the data and statistics and conclude both that some behaviors and choices produce superior results than others and that the good should be encouraged over the bad. If that was so, I think the atheists would find themselves aligned with the "delusional believers" a lot more often than they think even if it was for different reasons.

My problem is with the "leftists" that argue that it's all subjective and we shouldn't and can't judge. That's nonsense. We can so judge even without a God. As I said, we can look at the results. But beyond that, they get even worse. I'm all for fighting to protect the rights of people to disagree and/or engage in behaviors that produce bad results for themselves and society. But the left often goes beyond protection and into the area of encouragement, forcing others to pay for it, and attacking and destroying those that disagree.

That's partly why we are in this mess and why I am hostile to them.

It's wrong for "the believers" to try to impose their beliefs and costs on others, but the opposite is also true.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Webster defines Omnipresent as: present in all places at all times

[If your God is not omnipresent then he is not God.

But that doesn't mean that he indwells all things. He is only in His people through the Holy Spirit who He has given to his Church.

We are all children of God.

And you know this how?

And since God is Love as stated in the Bible, we are ALL loved.

You just tripped over yourself in a contradiction. You have been insisting all along that divine love requires or demands no object. Now, you're saying we're all objects of God's love. So, which is it?

Doesn't mean your argument is correct.

But it does mean that it is far more likely that it is compared to your wimpy, one liner argument. I suppose if Overlay and I offered no biblical reasons and pulled your stunt by chanting some one-liner, mindless mantra, you would say the same thing, wouldn't you?

Let me answer that with another quote from Jesus :

"Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS"

But wait, where is Greyfox's's narcissism accusation now? Must not like Sufis too much. There is no difference between this comment by Jesus and The Sufis:
I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

That doesn't mean what you think? Quoted out of context. We've discussed this passage previously, as you have taken it totally out of context. And furthermoire your interpretation would contradict numerous other passages that teach there are no gods except one!

There is no such thing as 2 different Divine Love's. There is only one.Yours is conditional, mine is not. Divine Love cannot exist on a conditional basis. So your Divine love is bogus.

The love that saves sinners is unconditional. The love that preserves converted saints is conditional.

Also, the love Jesus spoke of in the Parable of the Good Samaritan is infinitely superior to yours because true, biblical love demands objects and requires people to act upon the love they profess to have. Your version of divine love, though, is useless and worthless since it never has to seek the good or the welfare or protection or safety or comfort or well being of another. You do not have the kind of love in your heart that Jesus taught about in the parable.

That ignorant comment is because you have not experienced Divine love. You only know worldly love. Divine Love is an entity in itself, much like the air that we breathe. It doesn't care if there is and object to breathe it or not, it just is.

Well...let me put to you this way: I'm in very good company. I'm in the company of King Ignoramus. I'm in the company of Jesus who never subscribed to this nonsense you try to pass off as love. I guess he was pretty ignorant, too, eh? I suppose Jesus never experienced his Father's love either? What do you think?

Are you one of the "Good Christians"? You sound like a bad apple. The only reason you do not do "evil deeds" is because you are not in a position of power. If you were, I would,not put it past you to do "evil deeds" because your "love" is in your head not in your heart just like all the rapist priests and evangelical preachers who urged U.S. presidents to kill, kill, kill in the name of the Lord.

People don't have to be in position of power to do evil deeds! Evil resides in all men's hearts -- per Jesus.

That leaves you out.

I don't see how. I know Jesus is THE Way, THE Life and THE Truth and believe that with all my heart and soul and mind. But you, on the other hand think he is a way -- he is but one verson of the truth, etc. So, it seems to me you have chosen the broad path that leads to eternal destruction.

And I'm still waiting for you to answer my quesiton about Luke 17:

Luke 17:20-21
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say,' Look, here it is!' or,' There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst. "
NASB

So, tell me...was this kingdom also "in the midst" of the disciples who were with Jesus when he spoke these words to the Pharisees? (So much for your claim that the NIV is the only translation that has been altered for evil ulterior motives.)

[thaskalos]

Christianity is the world's most popular religion. How does that coincide with Jesus's comment in Matthew 7:14...which says that "small is the gate and narrow the path that leads to life, and only a few can find it."?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Christianity is the world's most popular religion. How does that coincide with Jesus's comment in Matthew 7:14...which says that "small is the gate and narrow the path that leads to life, and only a few can find it."?

Just because one says he's a Christian and believes he's a good Christian doesn't mean that he's a Christian and he'll be judged accordingly in due course, or that's what I've garnered from all of the posts in this thread.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Just because one says he's a Christian and believes he's a good Christian doesn't mean that he's a Christian and he'll be judged accordingly in due course, or that's what I've garnered from all of the posts in this thread.

Well...the Christians believe that their "faith" will save them...and that "salvation" isn't something that you can actively "work" to attain. And virtually all the Christians that I've ever encountered profess their everlasting faith that Jesus is their "savior", and the "Son of God".

Even if only 10% of today's 2 billion professed Christians qualify to be called "true Christians"...isn't that STILL too many to fit through the "narrow gate" of the "everlasting life"?

Is that what Jesus meant by "few"?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Well...the Christians believe that their "faith" will save them...and that "salvation" isn't something that you can actively "work" to attain. And virtually all the Christians that I've ever encountered profess their everlasting faith that Jesus is their "savior", and the "Son of God".

Even if only 10% of today's 2 billion professed Christians qualify to be called "true Christians"...isn't that STILL too many to fit through the "narrow gate" of the "everlasting life"?

Is that what Jesus meant by "few"?

Faith alone isn't enough apparently.
They have to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
I'll never get through that gate, but I can't rule out that some might.
It would seem doubtful that 200 million or even 20 million would have been truly filled with the Holy Spirit.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Christianity is the world's most popular religion. How does that coincide with Jesus's comment in Matthew 7:14...which says that "small is the gate and narrow the path that leads to life, and only a few can find it."?

Coincides perfectly since most of the Christian Church is steeped in apostasy.

Again...read chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation. Essentially, Jesus only commended 2 of the 7 churches. To the others he gave stern warnings to repent! Mind you: He's telling a whole slew of professing Christians to REPENT!