Religion II

[hcap]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Hcap, this is not related to the post above...

I was wondering what your take was on the Chabad Lubavitch sect in Judaism...? I have taken notice of them since Jared Kushner is part of the sect, and also that the sect has recently been cozing up to authoritarian leaders in Eastern Europe, including Putin...

Some have even suggested that a backdoor linkage between Trump and Putin exists through Kushner via the sect...have you read anything about this....

You are mixing poloitics and your poor understanding of Judaism.

I worked for a Hasidic family on and off for a few years, setting up a shop and teaching the father and eldest sons how to manufacture display items. The community they lived in was a small community in upstate NY. Through this one family, I did other work for others in the same town. One company, setting up and manufacturing staircases.

They were great people and I thoroughly enjoyed working with them. However I was never a "religious" Jew in the orthodox sense, and we did not share their orthodox aspects of Judaism.

Too literal minded much as fundamental Christians are.

However I did study the more mystical side of Judaism, Kabbalah. But there was much "heart" among the Hasidic

Although I was Jewish, it took a some time to be accepted as another Jew in the Hasidic community, but was eventually taken in.

They were a strong united conservative voting bloc, and other than that I did not follow their politics

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Where are you getting the info that Donald is a White Supremacist and an Anti-Semite...? Quite the contrary, his presidency is THE most Shemite in history...he is completely surrounded by Ashkenazi...how on earth does anybody think he is something other than financial status quo...?

Everyone on the left tells me he is a white supremacist sympathizer...or a straight up WS...take your pick.

WS don't look kindly on Jews, ERGO, what you write is impossibly FAKE NEWS.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Here’s a look at Chabad in New York...Alan Dershowitz speaks briefly...this is my first exposure to this sect of Judaism, so don’t get down on me for just sharing this everyone, we all have a right to learn about Judaism, after all, many Jews study Judaism ALL DAY, EVERYDAY..

...I have a right to learn too, and I cannot learn about Judaism without talking about Jews, Israelis, Chabad, etc...I’m interested in the topic, and this is the religion thread, and I’m not saying anything derogatory about anyone....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qoJc7VoEmq0

Why don't you ever have the balls to just come right out and say what you want to say about Jews and Israel and be done with it already.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Why don't you ever have the balls to just come right out and say what you want to say about Jews and Israel and be done with it already.

Because saying stuff about “Jews” and “israel” is non-sensical in nature...Those concepts involve blanket statements about impossible subjects...what is a Jew..? What is israel...? Abstract concepts...it is like someone saying something about “ an American” or the USA...it is totally non-sensical...besides I have no problems or issue with ANYBODY...any person for that matter.....

...now what a State does or does not do is a different matter...and there are many things that many States do, that are controversial and worth discussing, including our own, and I frequently do...

But I do find the history and culture of the Jews fascinating to study and because of their central role in history and dominance in our political culture, one can hardly avoid not discussing their role in it...

So I talk about Jews and Israelis a lot...so what. Boxcar talks about Christians a lot and you don’t bother him...I wish more people here WOULD talk more about them and their role in history and contemporary events...As far as I can tell, i’m the only one here on PA that ever brings them up except for Boxcar when he talks about some verse in the Old Testament...

They are interesting people, don’t you think...?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are mixing poloitics and your poor understanding of Judaism.

I worked for a Hasidic family on and off for a few years, setting up a shop and teaching the father and eldest sons how to manufacture display items. The community they lived in was a small community in upstate NY. Through this one family, I did other work for others in the same town. One company, setting up and manufacturing staircases.

They were great people and I thoroughly enjoyed working with them. However I was never a "religious" Jew in the orthodox sense, and we did not share their orthodox aspects of Judaism.

Too literal minded much as fundamental Christians are.

However I did study the more mystical side of Judaism, Kabbalah. But there was much "heart" among the Hasidic

Although I was Jewish, it took a some time to be accepted as another Jew in the Hasidic community, but was eventually taken in.

They were a strong united conservative voting bloc, and other than that I did not follow their politics

Thanks for replying...I like having decent conversations with people here at PA...my goal is to always raise the bar in some way...to expand the dialogue and learn from it...

I dislike getting into petty arguments over doctrinal points or unresolvable dialectical positions...I think that we all can and do learn from each other provided that each partner in a dialogue is willing to view the exchange in a positive manner and an opportunity for being friendly with other people..
...thanks for sharing.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

No need. It does.

That's a claim. The burden of proof is yours.

Internal consistency is not proof. The Lord of the Rings is internally consistent.

Enough to master mathematics through differential equations.

Internal consistency among DIFFERENT writers is strong proof. And internal consistency does not constitute circular reasoning. Circular reasoning occurs when one person reasons in a circle.

How many writers did "Lord of the Rings" have? And if multiple writers, did they collaborate with each other?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Internal consistency among DIFFERENT writers is strong proof.

No, it is not. If it were then we would have "strong proof" that the sun orbits the earth and the earth is the center of the universe. I could probably dig up over a hundred DIFFERENT writers who consistently agree that the earth is flat.

Plus the Bible IS NOT internally consistent.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Circular reasoning occurs when one person reasons in a circle.

Which is what you are doing when you use one part of the Bible to "prove" another part. Just because multiple writers shared the same delusion does not make that delusion true.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

No, it is not. If it were then we would have "strong proof" that the sun orbits the earth and the earth is the center of the universe. I could probably dig up over a hundred DIFFERENT writers who consistently agree that the earth is flat.

But other writers would disagree with them. Therefore, one group would have to be violating the Law of Noncontradiction.

Plus the Bible IS NOT internally consistent.

But it is, save for very minor, insignificant copyist errors.

Which is what you are doing when you use one part of the Bible to "prove" another part. Just because multiple writers shared the same delusion does not make that delusion true.

No, I'm not. I didn't write any parts of the bible. I'm appealing to multiple writers. And while these writers may express a thing differently from one another, their differences do not violate the Law of Noncontradiction. The two Judas passages that Hcap and I bandied about for a bit are a great example of this, since there is a reasonable way to reconcile their differences.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But other writers would disagree with them.

And they did, and do. Ergo, your whole argument falls apart.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Because saying stuff about “Jews” and “israel” is non-sensical in nature...Those concepts involve blanket statements about impossible subjects...what is a Jew..? What is israel...? Abstract concepts...it is like someone saying something about “ an American” or the USA...it is totally non-sensical...besides I have no problems or issue with ANYBODY...any person for that matter.....

...now what a State does or does not do is a different matter...and there are many things that many States do, that are controversial and worth discussing, including our own, and I frequently do...

But I do find the history and culture of the Jews fascinating to study and because of their central role in history and dominance in our political culture, one can hardly avoid not discussing their role in it...

So I talk about Jews and Israelis a lot...so what. Boxcar talks about Christians a lot and you don’t bother him...I wish more people here WOULD talk more about them and their role in history and contemporary events...As far as I can tell, i’m the only one here on PA that ever brings them up except for Boxcar when he talks about some verse in the Old Testament...

They are interesting people, don’t you think...?

I have found the Jews to be an absolutely fascinating people! A true testament to God's grace, since they have managed to survive three exiles/diasporas over these thousands of years, and still maintain to this day a national identity. I find this absolutely incredible. There is no nation like Israel on this planet. Israel is truly one of a kind. The closet ancient nation that still has its national identity today is Egypt, and it hasn't been through the wringer half the number of times Israel has.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

I was wondering what your take was on the Chabad Lubavitch sect in Judaism...?

Chabad is a cult of personality similar to that of David Koresh, Jim Jones, Scientology, etc.

I attended a Lubavitch high school. They are wackos.

[hcap]

Fox News priest assures storm victims that little girl who died in hurricane is part of ‘God’s purpose’
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/09/fox...-gods-purpose/

Father Jonathan Morris, a Fox News contributor, assured storm victims watching Fox & Friends on Sunday that the wrath of Hurricane Florence is part of God’s plan.

During a segment titled, “Where is God in a hurricane?” Fox News host Ed Henry told Morris that storm victims were suffering.

“Whether it’s a hurricane or some other hurricane-like reality in our lives, we get to a point where we say, ‘Gosh, where is God?'” Morris explained.

According to Morris, a hurricane “is a time in which we can become better people and focus on our relationship with God and our purpose for existing or else we can become bitter and we can just lose all hope.”

Morris argued that “if you build your house on sand, if you believe that fame, money, reputation — all of those things — is the meaning of your existence, you can’t help but get bitter.”

Fox News host Katie Pavlich told the story of a mother and baby who were killed when a tree fell on their home.
.................................................. .......





This why literal minded evangelical and fundamentalist notions of "god's justice" fails. And makes rational people question traditional religion.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Fox News priest assures storm victims that little girl who died in hurricane is part of ‘God’s purpose’
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/09/fox...-gods-purpose/

Father Jonathan Morris, a Fox News contributor, assured storm victims watching Fox & Friends on Sunday that the wrath of Hurricane Florence is part of God’s plan.

During a segment titled, “Where is God in a hurricane?” Fox News host Ed Henry told Morris that storm victims were suffering.

“Whether it’s a hurricane or some other hurricane-like reality in our lives, we get to a point where we say, ‘Gosh, where is God?'” Morris explained.

According to Morris, a hurricane “is a time in which we can become better people and focus on our relationship with God and our purpose for existing or else we can become bitter and we can just lose all hope.”

Morris argued that “if you build your house on sand, if you believe that fame, money, reputation — all of those things — is the meaning of your existence, you can’t help but get bitter.”

Fox News host Katie Pavlich told the story of a mother and baby who were killed when a tree fell on their home.
.................................................. .......

This why literal minded evangelical and fundamentalist notions of "god's justice" fails. And makes rational people question traditional religion.

Share with us, please, your literal-minded notion of Hcap's justice.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

Fox News priest assures storm victims that little girl who died in hurricane is part of ‘God’s purpose’
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/09/fox...-gods-purpose/

Father Jonathan Morris, a Fox News contributor, assured storm victims watching Fox & Friends on Sunday that the wrath of Hurricane Florence is part of God’s plan.

During a segment titled, “Where is God in a hurricane?” Fox News host Ed Henry told Morris that storm victims were suffering.

“Whether it’s a hurricane or some other hurricane-like reality in our lives, we get to a point where we say, ‘Gosh, where is God?'” Morris explained.

According to Morris, a hurricane “is a time in which we can become better people and focus on our relationship with God and our purpose for existing or else we can become bitter and we can just lose all hope.”

Morris argued that “if you build your house on sand, if you believe that fame, money, reputation — all of those things — is the meaning of your existence, you can’t help but get bitter.”

Fox News host Katie Pavlich told the story of a mother and baby who were killed when a tree fell on their home.
.................................................. .......





This why literal minded evangelical and fundamentalist notions of "god's justice" fails. And makes rational people question traditional religion.

Didn't see the interview, but I know it was a Catholic priest who made the remarks. He should be mindful not all people understand traditional Apostolic doctrine, of God's permissive will, which leads to confusion.

First let's address Calvin's take on natural disasters and resulting deaths. According to Calvin's institutes God indeed caused the natural disaster and willed the death of the mother and child, most likely for punishment.

Second the Catholic view based on Apostolic teaching. According to Apostolic teaching God did not cause the natural disaster nor the related deaths. Natural disasters are part of nature. But wait Father Morris, said it is part of God's purpose. God's purpose is includes His permissive will, which allows suffering. God allows nature to take its course even with its resulting suffering. Suffering brings people together, which is demonstrated in the actions of people helping other during these events.

“Indeed,” Fr. Flader says, “much good comes out of the immense suffering involved in natural disasters. People are led to realize how fragile their life is, how uncertain their days on earth, and they are often moved to repent of their sins and to draw closer to God in trustful prayer.”

We have all seen instances where people change for the better because of the way in which they respond to horrific circumstances: firefighters who risk their lives for others; families who put aside their differences and draw close together in times of crisis; people who learn to value prayer over material things they may have lost in a natural disaster. Amidst the suffering in this world, there is the opportunity to cling to Christ and to hope for eternal happiness with Him.

see: /aleteia.org/2013/01/21/are-natural-disasters-truly-acts-of-god/

And the other is God's "allowable" or Permissive Will which operates in accordance with the free will of man, the laws of Nature that He set forth, and the actions of the angels and demons. Thus God's Permissive Will encompasses all the actions in the natural and preternatural world, including the actions of the free will of man, the actions of devil and the demons and the actions of nature that God "allows" or permits to happen. Examples of God's Permissive Will would be illnesses and disease both physical and mental, natural disasters, physical accidents, and most especially the countless bad effects that stem from evil and sinful actions related to the free will choices of man, and also the free will of the angels and the demons, and their influences and effects upon humanity.

see: http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/20...to-happen.html

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Didn't see the interview, but I know it was a Catholic priest who made the remarks. He should be mindful not all people understand traditional Apostolic doctrine, of God's permissive will, which leads to confusion.

First let's address Calvin's take on natural disasters and resulting deaths. According to Calvin's institutes God indeed caused the natural disaster and willed the death of the mother and child, most likely for punishment.

Second the Catholic view based on Apostolic teaching. According to Apostolic teaching God did not cause the natural disaster nor the related deaths. Natural disasters are part of nature. But wait Father Morris, said it is part of God's purpose. God's purpose is includes His permissive will, which allows suffering. God allows nature to take its course even with its resulting suffering. Suffering brings people together, which is demonstrated in the actions of people helping other during these events.

“Indeed,” Fr. Flader says, “much good comes out of the immense suffering involved in natural disasters. People are led to realize how fragile their life is, how uncertain their days on earth, and they are often moved to repent of their sins and to draw closer to God in trustful prayer.”

We have all seen instances where people change for the better because of the way in which they respond to horrific circumstances: firefighters who risk their lives for others; families who put aside their differences and draw close together in times of crisis; people who learn to value prayer over material things they may have lost in a natural disaster. Amidst the suffering in this world, there is the opportunity to cling to Christ and to hope for eternal happiness with Him.

see: /aleteia.org/2013/01/21/are-natural-disasters-truly-acts-of-god/

And the other is God's "allowable" or Permissive Will which operates in accordance with the free will of man, the laws of Nature that He set forth, and the actions of the angels and demons. Thus God's Permissive Will encompasses all the actions in the natural and preternatural world, including the actions of the free will of man, the actions of devil and the demons and the actions of nature that God "allows" or permits to happen. Examples of God's Permissive Will would be illnesses and disease both physical and mental, natural disasters, physical accidents, and most especially the countless bad effects that stem from evil and sinful actions related to the free will choices of man, and also the free will of the angels and the demons, and their influences and effects upon humanity.

see: http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/20...to-happen.html

A few brief comments. If God's "permissive will" has a purpose and good can often come out of a tragedy that God "allows", then why can't God's decretive will also have a purpose and good come from it, even in great disasters?

Secondly, to appeal to so-called "permissive will" still begs the question for most people because the natural response would still be to ask, "Why would God allow this, that or some other thing to occur?" An explanation must still be given, so why can't the permissive will explanation be used just as readily to explain God's decretive will?

Thirdly, if only God's permissive will is at work in natural disasters, then why should anyone pray to God to "disallow" or change the course of natural events to avoid tragic outcomes, since that would take divine intervention through God's decree? The permissive will doctrine logically terminates in despair because it discourages people from exercising faith by praying to God to actually intervene on their behalf or on the behalf of others. Ironically, it truly leads to fatalism! Whatever God allows, he allows, since nature (natural forces) is a boundary God apparently doesn't cross. So, why pray to God when the forces nature are out of bounds to Him?

Next, the permissive will explanation for natural disasters doesn't square with biblical examples of God intervening in nature by divine decree. We see this in the Flood, in most of the plagues on Egypt in the Exodus account, in God's decree of sending droughts and ending them in Israel in the OT, in Jesus quieting the raging storm on the Sea of Galilee, the great earthquakes on Good Friday when Jesus died, etc..

Finally, we have this very explicit statement from Jesus that deals with natural forces:

Matt 5:45
45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
NASB