Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


View Poll Results: Mega Barn "Super" Trainers are............... (You can choose more than one answer)
Good for the game 13 10.00%
Bad for the game 81 62.31%
Have "Super Vets" and "Super" vet bills 47 36.15%
Just work harder than everyone else 11 8.46%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 130. This poll is closed

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-22-2018, 08:20 PM   #61
VigorsTheGrey
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
Can a racing outfit use steroids and other growth and performance drugs, etc, while the horse is being raised and all through the 2 yr season without making a racecard start...then quit right before joining onto the racing season as a 3 yr old...I'm thinking maybe Superdoped horses are being raised up from the get go to give them a head start physically...?
VigorsTheGrey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-22-2018, 10:36 PM   #62
Denny
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
Can a racing outfit use steroids and other growth and performance drugs, etc, while the horse is being raised and all through the 2 yr season without making a racecard start...then quit right before joining onto the racing season as a 3 yr old...I'm thinking maybe Superdoped horses are being raised up from the get go to give them a head start physically...?
That's what I've been saying in several posts - on this thread or others I've made on the TC with Justify, Arrogate, and the supertrainers and owners.
Denny is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-22-2018, 10:45 PM   #63
VigorsTheGrey
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Secretariat was juiced to the gills. You probably think he's one of the best ever.

Look at that sucker's neck. Built like an NFL linebacker juicing like there is no tomorrow.

Look up the history of steroids and tell me the 1970s weren't the golden age of steroid usage in horse racing. Three triple crowns that decade...hmmmm...what a coincidence.

And Riva Ridge didn't do too shabby either...maybe he was their test case and they perfected the ratio with Secretariat.
I wonder if, maybe if used, steroids made his heart oversized....sounds more plausible than the gene theory..http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html
VigorsTheGrey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 12:31 AM   #64
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
The true PA comes out FF in his previous response.

He knows the game smells from corruption, yet he's usually on his soapbox defending it.

How about you just go **** yourself? How about that, asshole.

You don't know shit from shinola. It shows in almost everything you post.

That's why you can't bet t-breds anymore and now resort to playing harness.

Yet you post like you're the Stephen Hawking of racing.

I don't defend shit. I just point out idiots. That's my main game around here.
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 12:32 AM   #65
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
I wonder if, maybe if used, steroids made his heart oversized....sounds more plausible than the gene theory..http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html
No, an enlarged heart is NOT a usual side effect from steroid use. I've researched this myself.

However, being a fine-tuned athlete will lead to a larger heart, but it's the "good kind" of enlargement...as any muscle will get larger when exercised constantly, and your heart is indeed a muscle...
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 06-23-2018 at 12:33 AM.
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 01:42 AM   #66
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
How about you just go **** yourself? How about that, asshole.

You don't know shit from shinola. It shows in almost everything you post.

That's why you can't bet t-breds anymore and now resort to playing harness.

Yet you post like you're the Stephen Hawking of racing.

I don't defend shit. I just point out idiots. That's my main game around here.
Too harsh?
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 11:34 AM   #67
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
I don’t understand your post. Are you defending the cheating?
How could you POSSIBLY get from my post that I am DEFENDING cheating. Holy moly....what is wrong with some of you?
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 11:54 AM   #68
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 12:23 PM   #69
AskinHaskin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Fischer View Post
Should we be focused on artificially equalizing trainers?

"We have to try to help these guys" - Tim Ritvo



Once again, most of you and the rest of the entire industry are missing the crucial concern here.


"Trainers" are not, and will never be chief among the concerns of horse racing or its well being. Everyone knows that ping-pong balls do not need trainers. The speculative game of race horse ownership is a separate entity from the core concerns relating to the future of horse racing. Race horses might as well be bitcoins where it concerns any connection between their worth and the wagering dollar.

The bottom line is that nearly every other form of gambling/gaming features significant parity among the gambling/gaming crowd, and horse racing does not. The guys Tim Ritvo needs to help are not the unrelated speculators on the backstretch, they are the people who have been right in front of his eyes for decades, toward whom Tim Ritvo has perhaps only lifted a single finger during his entire career.


Horse racing should be focused on "artificially equalizing" its own gambling crowd, so as to put itself on equal footing with all of the competition (for the gambling dollar) which has assembled nearby and since the 1970's.


It's as simple as now doing (at least) SOMEthing for your customers, for what would be the collective first times in the entire careers of many race track operators.

Stop giving customers Tim Ritvo's finger.
AskinHaskin is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 12:58 PM   #70
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
How could you POSSIBLY get from my post that I am DEFENDING cheating. Holy moly....what is wrong with some of you?
Because you said cheating’s always happened, and “adapt.”

What’s adapt supposed to me except to accept it and adapt accordingly.

You have another meaning for saying to adapt?
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 01:01 PM   #71
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 03:45 PM   #72
papillon
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 282
Too Funny

So I see this ad at Paulick for a substance called Race Recovery, being hawked by Baffert and Justify, the poster boy of miraculous recovery.

It's Gatorade for Horses basically, an electolyte supplement. It's got what horses crave!


You don't need steriods for race recovery! You just need Horse Gatorade! The inside joke element to this...well played Bob, well played.
papillon is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 03:47 PM   #73
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
Because you said cheating’s always happened, and “adapt.”

What’s adapt supposed to me except to accept it and adapt accordingly.

You have another meaning for saying to adapt?
How can you do anything other than accept and adapt? There are many ways to cheat outside of using PEDs. Accepting and adapting doesn't mean you are against efforts to minimize cheating.

Do you accept and adapt that there are still people who drive their cars over the speed limit even though the highway patrol spends countless hours trying to stop drivers from doing so?
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 04:43 PM   #74
papillon
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
I wonder if, maybe if used, steroids made his heart oversized....sounds more plausible than the gene theory..http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html

All elite atheletes have large hearts. Your heart grows with use like any muscle. Once you stop being an elite athelete your heart starts returning to normal. Like the rest of you.

I've always thought the large heart bs was just a red herring. He had one, ergo, it must be why he had such an incredible 5 weeks in the Spring of 73. A better example of circular logic you'll never find.

There are 3 bio-mechanical factors in speed--propulsive force, cadence, and oxygen in-take.

The article below is pretty cool, it examines Secretariat, Black Caviar, Frankel, and American Pharoah. Secretariat's stride was shorter than all of them. Two lengths shorter than Black Caviar and Frankel and one foot shorter than AP. His speed came from his cadence (what the author calls his turn over).

https://www.performancegenetics.com/...to-Secretariat

Think of Winx, she has incredibly fast cadence, as do Quarter Horses. They are faster because they are actually moving faster, literally, their legs are moving faster. It sounds dumb, but that's all there is to it.

Amphetamines might increase cadence. If Secretariat's speed wasn't natural, perhaps they had him hopped up on speed, but he ran 10f in 1:59 twice in his TC, and was on pace to do so in the Preakness and amphetamines wreck havoc with consistency, so...maybe he really was just a very fast horse.

Anywho, I recommend the article. It also discusses strike-force.

Back when Lance turned from "couldn't get through the first week Lance," to super-Lance, there was a lot made of the fact that he had increased his cadence and improved his form, which he did do, and those were certainly necessary to maximize his other "adjustments."
papillon is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-23-2018, 05:41 PM   #75
papillon
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
Can a racing outfit use steroids and other growth and performance drugs, etc, while the horse is being raised and all through the 2 yr season without making a racecard start...then quit right before joining onto the racing season as a 3 yr old...I'm thinking maybe Superdoped horses are being raised up from the get go to give them a head start physically...?
I don't know very much about gene-doping, so I'm putting a caveat at the outset.

With traditional doping there are problems that arise with use overtime.

With testosterone and EPO, the longer you use, the less your own body makes, so that you become wholly dependant on supplimental sources over time. If a horse is raised on supplements, you'd risk having an animal that would cease to do much of anything if it were prevented from receiving continued supplements even for a short time. You'd go from having an athelete to a couch potato overnight.

I would think that the benefit of an unraced 2 yo starting from nowhere as a 3yo, would be that they would be less likely to come up for OOC testing for awhile, and then the testing will be pretty predictable, almost always right after the race.You have to be a moron to get caught if you know when the test is coming.

This would give somewhat of an edge because the early races will take less out of the horse, because the horses is hopped all the way up, whereas his crop mates have been running with less of a buffer, for longer, taking more of a toll.

FWIW the timing from the KY Derby to the Belmont is perfect for a classic EPO/testosterone regime to avoid testing, because you know exactly when you'll be tested and it almost splits perfectly into three very tidy 3 week regiments if your last race before the Derby was 3 weeks earlier: Supplement the day after your last prep test, by the KY Derby you'll pass the tests, but still have the benefit. Then re-up the day after the KY Derby post race test, and hold your breath that the Preakness is still the joke-test race, then top off again the day after the Preakness test for the Belmont. With the Preakness, you'd prob want to do a smaller amount, just to be safe.
papillon is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.