Trying to understand 'The Claiming Game'

[senortout]

I am regularly amazed at the number of times some horses are claimed, over and over again, at tracks like Parx. Just glancing down the pages of races on a daily basis, I can find races where the average age is over 5 and more horses beyond 5 in many cases; they are routinely claimed every 2-3 races, and NOT ALWAYS BACK AND FORTH. By that I mean, sometimes the owner or trainer reclaims the horse right back but this is not usually the case with these horses.


If 6 or 7 of the 8 or 9 running are quite likely to be claimed from the race, what becomes the incentive to claim from such a race?


I do realize that these horses don't fit the conditions of many of the races being carded at their local track.


What is the actual, or theoretical advantage of entering a horse in such a race?


I truly believe that a greater percentage of the horses are not making a winning attempt in such a race.


The 'Money' is usually quite 'well-directed' in such a race, as well. I know this because I am generally very close to correct in predicting the outcome of many different types of races, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THESE RACES. Not saying I make money at the game, far from it. Just that I do quite poorly at these, and have been reluctant to 'FOLLOW THE MONEY' (thus changing my normal methods instead. My regular methods would encourage me 'NOT TO BET AGAINST A HORSE WHO APPEARS A STAND-OUT ON THE FORM'


The races in question however, will often ignore completely ignore horses which appear as standouts to me, and their jockeys seem reluctant indeed, to 'JOIN THE FRAY.' This puts me on more long-odds horses and they often run to their odds, or worse~!!!

[SBD400]

There is a lot to unpack in your post.



The incentive to claim horses is it is a way for an owner to get quick action and a horse with proven ability. Unlike buying a young horse at a sale that takes months to years to get to a race that may never actually race or win. The purses for claiming races typically far exceed the claiming price, so you can theoretically claim a horse and if they run well for you you can get your money back and make a profit. Even if you need to drop them, the purses can make up for the loss in claiming price.



The horses are entered in claiming races for many reasons, but chief among them is most horses are claimers and that is where they can be competitive to pay the monthly bills.

Personally betting open claiming races is my least favorite type of race to bet as I find them less predictable with too much to unpack then other types of races.

[Maximillion]

Originally Posted by senortout

I am regularly amazed at the number of times some horses are claimed, over and over again, at tracks like Parx. Just glancing down the pages of races on a daily basis, I can find races where the average age is over 5 and more horses beyond 5 in many cases; they are routinely claimed every 2-3 races, and NOT ALWAYS BACK AND FORTH. By that I mean, sometimes the owner or trainer reclaims the horse right back but this is not usually the case with these horses.


If 6 or 7 of the 8 or 9 running are quite likely to be claimed from the race, what becomes the incentive to claim from such a race?


I do realize that these horses don't fit the conditions of many of the races being carded at their local track.


What is the actual, or theoretical advantage of entering a horse in such a race?


I truly believe that a greater percentage of the horses are not making a winning attempt in such a race.


The 'Money' is usually quite 'well-directed' in such a race, as well. I know this because I am generally very close to correct in predicting the outcome of many different types of races, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THESE RACES. Not saying I make money at the game, far from it. Just that I do quite poorly at these, and have been reluctant to 'FOLLOW THE MONEY' (thus changing my normal methods instead. My regular methods would encourage me 'NOT TO BET AGAINST A HORSE WHO APPEARS A STAND-OUT ON THE FORM'


The races in question however, will often ignore completely ignore horses which appear as standouts to me, and their jockeys seem reluctant indeed, to 'JOIN THE FRAY.' This puts me on more long-odds horses and they often run to their odds, or worse~!!!

Maybe the positive thing is you sometimes can bet against the standout in the claimer.If your often close to correct in the other types of races it may be nothing more than a string of recent bad luck....I wouldn't change what you normally do if you decide too keep playing them.

[castaway01]

I would say that the theoretical advantage to entering the horses at the same level they were claimed is that they can compete and win at that level. And as you said, if they get claimed, there are always more to replace the one that was claimed.

You wrote a lot that I think we'd just have to guess on, because if you have five different trainers/owners they probably have five different motivations. However, I think a horse being reclaimed is a positive and not a negative, and I certainly would expect that horse to try to win the next race (because if it's going to be claimed from you, why would you have it finish 6th so you don't get purse money, and you lose the horse too?).

[SBD400]

A horse being reclaimed by same trainer is a positive thing, the trainer has had the horse before and knows what kind of problems the horse has or doesn't have, they have insight the other trainers who never had the horse don't have. From a betting standpoint this is good to know as it gives you insight into the relative health of the horse.

[senortout]

I thank you guys for your thoughtful replies. You've all attempted to answer my questions. A few other questions are now in my 'crannie'.


1. A claiming trainer who reclaims a lot of horse but has a very low success-rate with these claims...is he doing it because his owners have horses which they treat as 'pets'? Or does he spend time discussing with his owners some good, solid reasons for NOT reclaiming ie the pros and cons. Perhaps he earns a portion of his profits from the fees he charges his uninformed customers...they don't know/care about the expenses involved in caring for the animals?

2. Is the informed opinion of some jockey(s) having much input in the claiming decision? Bluntly, does the rider know without doubt that the horse was never persevered with in recent start(s) and why the lack of effort occurred.
3. Which brings up injury rates and death rates at the track (Parx) involved. Are they more directly tied to running unfit horses in an effort to prevent breakdowns, or, rather, are they a product of running fit horses in a rotating fashion...bluntly, you win this race at a nice(er) price and I'll win the next at an even NICE(ER) price. Is chicanery involved? Of course it is, there's always some, but how much is the question here.
4. In most cases, when I choose a horse to bet on, if he does well, the horses I considered his main adversaries turn out to be the ones I dismissed in the late stages of making the decision. I guess you've guessed by now I don't play exotics.
5. A few questions back I'd mentioned injury and death rates at Parx, and, since I don't know that they are particularly high, they have certainly not been in the headlines lately like some bigger tracks which I won't have to mention today.

[tbwinner]

All good questions.

When I owned horses between 2009 and 2013, claiming was my go to 90% of the time.

Quick action and potential for ROI. Nothing like scoping out a horse to claim and having a plan to run back in 2-3 weeks.

As far as what horses to look for, in general:
1-a trainer/owner my team could improve upon. This doesn't necessarily mean a low % trainer, it could be one who doesn't excel with a certain type (like a turfer) or you have a stubborn owner running him in too high a level and they finally bring him to a more appropriate claiming level.
2-something I could run back in 2-3 weeks. Always had a plan, consulted the condition book and paid attention to what races were being written so I knew where our A/B/C options were to enter into.
3-physically my trainer looked for something they could improve, such as noting a dull coat, something in the replays, stature/running style of a horse to suggest going longer/shorter. A lot of horses especially older ones enjoy a barn change -- I claimed a few 6,7 year olds that woke up as a different animal in a new barn (you'll see this frequently in claimers)
4-I used thorograph a lot to find potential claims. My favorite was a horse that was routing that ran some nice sprint figures early in his career. He was a closer so the previous connections figured the longer, the better. Trainer made me try a route then I forced an entry into a sprint, and boom he wins at 13-1 at a 20K claimer(and think we claimed him for 12,500). He ran another close 2nd and 3rd before being claimed away at Oaklawn for a profit. TG figs good to identify horses coming into form.

Always shenanigans in claiming races just like all other races. Horses have been held, ran sore (especially at the lowest level tracks), etc. Regrettably I had run horses that were sore and "on their way out" to dispose of them at the claim box. So yes, people treat these as commodities and sometimes their health goes overlooked. Not a lot of advocacy for claimers

[tbwinner]

Originally Posted by SBD400

A horse being reclaimed by same trainer is a positive thing, the trainer has had the horse before and knows what kind of problems the horse has or doesn't have, they have insight the other trainers who never had the horse don't have. From a betting standpoint this is good to know as it gives you insight into the relative health of the horse.

Agree but only if it's for a high % owner too.

Way too many owners claim back horses for sentimental reasons. Now they are of course free to do as they choose with their $...but these cases don't make a good bet.

I used to have a partner who wanted to claim EVERY horse back and run them next out in a stake so we didn't lose them