Betting Club - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

highnote · 10-28-2010, 12:32 AM

Has anyone ever considered the idea of a betting club?

I ask because I am considering writing software that would allow people to participate in this type of club over the internet.

I envision a betting club to be a group of bettors who bet among themselves. There is no takeout. The house makes no profit. All bets are between ladies and gentlemen of the club and are settled up using an honor system.

The person who runs the club would do it for the love of it, not for profit motives. The profit for the owner of the club would come from being able to bet profitably against other members. And if the owner incurred a loss that is part of the game.

SAMPLE RULES:

If a person does not pay up then everyone is notified and can choose to do bets or not to bets with the person who did not pay.

Any member could also see the liabilities of any other member at any given time and decide whether or not to book bets with them.

Thoughts/feedback/comments/criticism appreciated!

Don't hold back. I want to hear the good and the bad.

thaskalos · 10-28-2010, 12:42 AM

What are the legal ramifications of something like this? Does the fact that the "house" receives no profit from the endeavor, absolve it from charges of running an illegal gambling operation?

Turkoman · 10-28-2010, 02:06 AM

Doesn't sound very legal to me. I'm sure there are a bunch of gambling regulations that would make this impossible to take place.

Turkoman

highnote · 10-28-2010, 02:36 AM

Here is one argument why it is legal. There is no house. The players are betting among themselves -- just like the weekend poker game -- or the ones you might have played with your roomates in college.

Anther argument... there was a group of men in Connecticut who regularly played poker on the commuter train every evening after work on their way home. They were arrested for gambling. One or more of them was a lawyer. They fought the charges on the grounds that there was no house and it was a private game. The fact that the game was played on the train was irrelevant. They won and they continued to play poker.

So I think the same standard applies here. If a group of people want to bet privately among themselves there is nothing illegal about it.

The Feds, to my knowledge, are only interested in busting bookies. How many people do you know that have been arrested for gambling? How many bookmakers have been arrested -- many.

So if I create a piece of software and give it away for free for people to use to get together to bet among themselves I can not see how it is illegal.

But I welcome any and all arguments about why it is illegal. Saying it "seems like it should be illegal" is not enough. I need to know why it is illegal. Without a good argument against the software then I might be motivated enough to create it.

The Justice Department says betting on horses over the internet is illegal. How many horseplayers have been arrested for betting over the internet?

How many Arizona horseplayers have been arrested? You know as well as I that there are people in Arizona making bets over the internet on horseraces.

Robert Goren · 10-28-2010, 08:25 AM

Just as a side note, There have been several arrests of home game poker players in Nebraska. I have got to believe the horse racing club would be illegal almost everywhere. The worry would be that the government would figure out some way to confiscate the money.

KidCapper · 10-28-2010, 10:26 AM

Robert, that's what we get for being stuck in Nebraska. Our beloved state has done nothing right for horse racing, or gambling for that matter, ever. We fear gambling with the good life, unless its the powerball or church run bingo.

highnote · 10-28-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Just as a side note, There have been several arrests of home game poker players in Nebraska. I have got to believe the horse racing club would be illegal almost everywhere. The worry would be that the government would figure out some way to confiscate the money.

What were the circumstances? Was there a person acting as the house and taking a commission? As I said, in Connecticut it has already been determined that it is legal to play poker for actual stakes on a commuter train.

In the betting club the only time money changes hands is when people settle up their accounts with each other. The software would determine who owes whom, but it's up to each individual to pay. That is the only weakness in the system. If a person is betting a lot during the week with a lot of different people then settling the accounts could get too cumbersome.

The idea needs refining, but there is potential.

misscashalot · 10-28-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

Has anyone ever considered the idea of a betting club?
......Thoughts/feedback/comments/criticism appreciated! Don't hold back. I want to hear the good .....

I volunteer to be the clearing house to hold and disburse the $. I've never stolen a dime, all I want is a chance.

Charli125 · 10-28-2010, 11:23 AM

[QUOTE=swetyejohn
There is no takeout. The house makes no profit.
[/QUOTE]

With the exception of this part, I've definitely heard of it, it's called Betfair.

chickenhead · 10-28-2010, 11:31 AM

yes, it is Betfair. If you're gonna create something, make a proxy front end whereby you are simply an aggregator that allows US players to sign up, fund their account, and make plays into Betfair, without actually ever hitting Betfair. Just do it all on the backend between your system (as a single account) and theirs.

Host it outside the US.

Robert Goren · 10-28-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

What were the circumstances? Was there a person acting as the house and taking a commission? As I said, in Connecticut it has already been determined that it is legal to play poker for actual stakes on a commuter train.

In the betting club the only time money changes hands is when people settle up their accounts with each other. The software would determine who owes whom, but it's up to each individual to pay. That is the only weakness in the system. If a person is betting a lot during the week with a lot of different people then settling the accounts could get too cumbersome.

The idea needs refining, but there is potential.

All I know it was in the paper. Outside of that I don't know much about it. I am not even sure it went court. The idea has some merit, if legal. But trusting other gamblers to pay up after the fact is not my thing. I have gotten stiffed one too many times. Anyway good luck with your idea.

Robert Fischer · 10-28-2010, 12:19 PM

interesting stuff...

to be 100, I am too ignorant of the specific and even the general law involved. All I can really contribute with is "interesting stuff".

highnote · 10-28-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misscashalot

I volunteer to be the clearing house to hold and disburse the $. I've never stolen a dime, all I want is a chance.

There would not be a clearinghouse.

Let's say you think Texas will beat SF in the next World Series game. You fire up your betting software and see if you can find someone "with a good reputation" to take your bet. This also assumes you have a good reputation.

The way I envision it is that everyone starts with a small account. As people begin to gain your trust, your wagering account is increased.

Also, everyone would be known -- name, address, etc. -- because you will need to know where to send the money when you lose. And who to collect from when you win.

If a person does not pay off on his bets he gets a negative rating -- like on ebay.

This is a club based on trust. If there is no trust then there is no transaction. Same as a bank. It lends out money because it trusts that the person they are lending to will pay it back. Some people are deadbeats.

In a betting club the deadbeats get flagged. Too many flags and they are kicked out of the club and can not get back in until they pay off their bets.

Just like a bank, when you make a bet you risk taking a loss to a deadbeat. So you factor that in to your calculations. At the end of the year, maybe you have a 2% loss to deadbeats. Eventually, you will get to know who the trustworthy people are.

If you are a person who bets $10,000 per basketball game you probably have a decent sized bankroll. You would want to bet with others who you know can payoff when you win. They want to know you will payoff when you lose.

Then there are the $2 bettors. Most well funded gamblers are not too concerned about losing $2 to a deadbeat. In fact, booking a $2 bet is probably not worth their time because at the end of the week they will have to return the $2 to the person. That would be a nuisance.

However, a $2 bettor might not mind betting with other $2 bettors because they are trying to grow their reputation in the club.

InsideThePylons-MW · 10-28-2010, 02:43 PM

Whoever accepts the bet is bookmaking.

It doesn't matter if 2 guys agree on it and their is no takeout.

If John and Robert wanted to open up a bookmaking shop....they would sit at a table in the "betting club"....other clubmember bettors would walk in and tell John and Robert who they like....John would say I like SF at +100...Robert would say I like Tex at +110 so the customer would/could either bet Tex at +100 with John or SF at -110 with Robert. Obviously the same applies to the internet.

Do you really think that would be legal?

Valuist · 10-28-2010, 02:46 PM

Sounds basically like a gambling hedge fund, which Mark Cuban was trying to organize.

The next question is, who is the head decision maker?