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Old 06-08-2004, 08:29 PM   #1
linrom1
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Zito the Snake - from DerbyList

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:29:45 -0500
From: frankmac
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Ok ,Larry you have been watching races for 40 years, and you sure know when
you see a bad ride and when you don't. So I have been watching races as
well for 35 years and I know a bad ride as well. Elliot should not have
been on that horse.

And if he was my horse, I would not have a journeyman jockey, or my
son-in-law riding him. There are at least 30 jockeys who if they rode the
horse would have won the triple crown with that horse, you know it and all
those who read this list know it. Peter Tolan it is not sour grapes that I
write about here, say you owned that horse would you have ridden Elliot,
yeah sure you would have. And since you live in La la land you probably
would want luke walton instead of Kobe to take the last shot in the 7 game
of the NBA finals. Elliot was overmatched from day one, and only the
Trainer has the right to defend him. The rest of us know he it just a
journeyman from PHILLY, who has a trainer that values loyalty over common
sense. Nixon was the same way by the way.

The Trainer knows that he got a bad ride, and with your connections to
Santos and the new york crowd, maybe you could ask him for us, what he
really thinks about 10 hard and eddington cooking his horse. Maybe you
could ask Carol, did he get a great ride, and did the people on the
backstretch of Philly Park think that he got a great ride. Since you
brought up Santos, his ride in the preakness and his unprepareness in the
Belmont were sins that we all know about. When you have a horse win by over
5 lengths in a triple crown race you have given the horse a bad ride unless
it is the LAST LEG. Santos did it, and Elliot repeated the mistake. So
maybe we should leave Santos discussion for another day, but with your new
york connections ask the owners of F.cide what they think of his(santos)
ride in the Belmont.

My screensaver is the finish of this years Belmont, and the Jones horse was
beaten ONE length. Also the Jones horse is in the three path or the four
path when he got beat. Are you telling me that three wide on a wide
belmont first turn is not worth 1 length. And then on the backside he is on
the rail, and coming from home he is in the 3 or 4 path. Remember he only
needs a length and one inch. 3 wide at belmont first turn is worth an inch,
from three wide first turn to the rail on the backside to three wide must
be worth something. If any of the sheets people will chime in and tell me
three wide at Belmont is not worth an inch I will shut up. If going three
wide and then down to the rail and then to the three path is not worth a
length tell me that too.

And he moved the horse to soon to boot, and when you are racing for half
america you better not be surprized by anything, you better
move at the right place, and you better admit that the horse HAS SETTLED
in his last four races coming up to the Belmont, and one was in a sea of
mud with the infield pack with Drunks screaming at
you, if he settled there in kentucky the back side of Belmont is a cake
walk.

So here are my arguments.

1. He should have been at Belmont, instead of Philly for the last week. He
should have been jogged there before he raced there.

Thats was the trainers fault, maybe if he was there in New york, he would
have heard about the mugging his horse was about to be given by the New
york elite.

The next time you see 10 hard rock or eddington on the lead with a mile to
run, I will also shut up, But I remember woody and fortyniner, and it was
the same hatchet job that was pulled on the Jones horse.

To Zito the snake. What was all the bs about lost shoes in the derby, did
his horse lose the shoes or was that Zito looking for a excuse. If the
horse had an excuse why did he not run in the preakness. If he had a
excuse run the horse for a million, or was he just sand bagging for the
Belmont.
He used the Derby as a prep race, he worked the horse in 58 to go a mile
and a quarter before that race and then told us it was the shoes. If it was
the shoes run him in the preakness or was he boycotting Magna like we are.

Zito said the horse was sick, then
he was well, then he lost his shoes, and then did he once mention that he
had this monster training up storm, god his last work was for 15K
claimers, not a horse entered into million dollar race. Look 1:15 sucks
and the odds go higher after that work. We running for second and the odds
go higher, Cliff may run and may not and the odds go higher. And in the
Barn is horse ready to close 5 lengths in the belmont 1 and half.

So he is a genius you say, I say he is a snake, he talked and talked about
cliff's edge, but never never Birdstone. He got his odd he made
his money, but he screwed us. If he had once just once said what he had,
and you and I know what he had, a fresh horse, waiting for his new york
friends to cook the pace.

Allen J. told frankel to run the master, because he knew they planned the
woody move and cook the pace on the Podunk jockey, and the master could
close on this group if they burn't the jones horse out. If he had
someone(the Jones horse) who knew what he was going on Instead of MR.
Podunk they could have tried but they would have failed. It was Elliot
fault, because he gave the them the chance and they took it. Do you think
the 30 other jockeys I could name and you could name, and Tolan could name
would have screwed up like elliot did , hell put P.val up on the horse
while he high on drugs and he still wins going away with that horse.


You are to close to the forest Larry to see the Tree's, get out of new york
and see that the rest of the country sees here in the Midwest we know a
bad ride when the see one, and elliots was a bad ride by the infone man.


Another thought, if you want to see another triple, you have to change the
conditions, not the distances.To stop this happening year after year. all
one has to do is change the conditions which governs these three races, if
you run in the derby you caring 126 pounds in the preakness, no derby then
you caring 131 pounds, if you do not run in the preakness then 131 and not
in the derby 136 when they run the belmont. Do you think 5 pounds is
worth a length, if you do then you would have had triple crown winner this
year.

Instead of hiding in the weeds, the snakes with monsters in the barn
waiting to cash a big bet,well the weights would stop these thieves.

Please do not tell me they are rich and do not need the money, all one has
to do is look at Martha Stwart.

You made money Larry, by betting Zito, and if Lukas was there with his
juice all who bet on Lukas in G1 ones would have as well.
But when a trainer works a horse in 1:15 and has a monster, and talks
about cliff being a game time decision, and he is running for second, he
ruins this game.

Frank

So when the Zito folks said they were sorry they
Lied, Big time.
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Old 06-08-2004, 08:54 PM   #2
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Re: Zito the Snake - from DerbyList

Quote:
Originally posted by linrom1


Another thought, if you want to see another triple, you have to change the
conditions, not the distances.To stop this happening year after year. all
one has to do is change the conditions which governs these three races, if
you run in the derby you caring 126 pounds in the preakness, no derby then
you caring 131 pounds, if you do not run in the preakness then 131 and not
in the derby 136 when they run the belmont. Do you think 5 pounds is
worth a length, if you do then you would have had triple crown winner this
year.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. By doing this, you make the Triple Crown look foolish and entirely too simple. It loses all prestige when a horse that doesn't deserve the honor wins the Crown. Looking back, there's really only one horse that may have been a questionable Crown winner, Omaha, and nobody mentions him nowadays.

By crippling horses that have a shot at a one million-dollar purse with massive weight imposts, you take all the fun and element of chance and throw it into the hands of the casual race fan, the fan who has no idea what a substance like Lasix is and what it does. Horse racing is not meant to be a sport for the clueless, it's the Sport of Kings. And no king, no matter how drunk he is, would approve of this proposal.

The Triple Crown isn't meant to be easy. It's meant to seperate the champions from the very good horses. Keep it the way it is. Don't change dates, don't change conditions. This will make it all the more sweet when a superhorse crosses the wire in the Belmont and picks up that bonus check from Visa in the winner's circle.
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Old 06-08-2004, 09:44 PM   #3
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What is it now, 6 of last 8 TC series had a horse eleigible to win it all in the Belmont? How many of them were close to pulling it off?
Lower the bar and we could have a TC winnier 6 out o the last 8.
Kind of take the luster off the event.
Got to face fact-Smarty was not /is not a champion-not a legend.
He had a nice run, now back to earth and all those $4,000 nw2l races going off all over the land right now.
No joy in Mudville today.
Just make the TC all the more prestigious-championships are won on the track, not in the press, in chat rooms, or on message boards.
"He is moving like a tremendous machine..."
"The whip is out on Smart Jones..."

No contest.
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Old 06-08-2004, 09:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom
"He is moving like a tremendous machine..."
"The whip is out on Smart Jones..."

No contest.
That's exactly right, no contest because there cannot be a contest between these two. You want to put any other champions up against Secretariat? As for Smarty Jones not being a champion, that is still to be determined. He's only lost one race you know . . .
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Old 06-09-2004, 12:05 AM   #5
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Re: Zito the Snake - from DerbyList

Quote:
Originally posted by linrom1
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:29:45 -0500
From: frankmac
Subject: X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8c, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm

Ok ,Larry you have been watching races for 40 years, and you sure know when
you see a bad ride and when you don't. So I have been watching races as
well for 35 years and I know a bad ride as well. Elliot should not have
been on that horse.......

If only horse racing were this predictable...yup, Zito had the whole thing set up since Christmas 2003....Yup, that's the ticket....uh huh.....yes siree bob....yup....he did it alright....

Give.....me......a.....BREAK!@#@%%!
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:03 PM   #6
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Come on, PA, didn't you see the elite jocks digging a hole in front of War Emblem's gate before the race? I'm sure Sarava's connections were all over that one too... at least as far back as '99....
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:35 AM   #7
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Assinine and stupid.

Did you watch the Derby Draw and Zito's reaction to the 50-1 morning line on Birdstone. He has always talked up the"little guy" as he calls him
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Old 06-10-2004, 10:09 AM   #8
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Interesting that the 88 Preakness was brought up. I believe Risen Star would've won anyways (should've won the Derby if not for a 10 wide trip on the far turn). But anyone who watched that saw that Stephens sacrificed Forty Niner in the Preakness. This was not some longshot. 49er was beaten a neck in the Derby. Woody even said something to the effect of "I may not win it, but she (Winning Colors) won't either." Its naive to think this hasn't happened. And I'll be waiting for the next time RHT and Eddington are on the lead w/a mile to go....and better yet Bailey has the horse under all out out drive with 8 furlongs to go.
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Old 06-10-2004, 10:29 AM   #9
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Re: Zito, I started compiling a spreadsheet on how horses perform in their first race AWAY from a trainer. I've only done a little bit but the first 4 horses that left Zito's barn all went on layoffs before racing again. The sample size is still too small but I'm watching closely to see if this continues. I know a guy that claimed a horse in Ky off a small time trainer and the horse had so many drugs in his system they couldn't get the horse back to the track for 4 months. Not saying its true for Zito but if this patten continues, I'll harbor those suspicions.
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:24 PM   #10
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Re: Zito the Snake - from DerbyList

So he is a genius you say, I say he is a snake, he talked and talked about
cliff's edge, but never never Birdstone.


Don't you think you have been taught this lesson numerous times. Always beware of the longer shot of a trainer's uncoupled entries.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:20 PM   #11
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...I say he is a snake, he talked and talked about cliff's edge, but never never Birdstone...

What horse would the average trainer think the public would want to hear about: A horse who won nothing but an allowance leading up to the Belmont or a horse who defeated the Derby's second-place horse in the Blue Grass?

Zito, in my opinion, is guilty of nothing more than an upset. This thread makes it seem like he, as well as other trainers with high-class horses, has an obligation to let the public know about every horse he runs in a G1. No way. You never hear this leading up to the Breeders Cup, never.

I think this is all outrage over Smarty losing. Everyone wants to put Zito in the black hat of the average antagonist, when all he did was win a Grade 1 over a horse that probably couldn't get the distance of a mile and a half. Hats off to him and the Birdstone crew.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:27 PM   #12
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""He is moving like a tremendous machine..."
"The whip is out on Smart Jones...""

Beautiful, Tom. Says it all.
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Old 06-10-2004, 11:15 PM   #13
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Re: Re: Zito the Snake - from DerbyList

Quote:
Originally posted by depalma13
So he is a genius you say, I say he is a snake, he talked and talked about
Actually, he's neither a genius nor a snake.....IMO

And I will ask again. What did you want Bailey to do with Eddington?? Drop him back 10 lengths and make a big late run? That's not the horse's style. Eddington is a horse with SPEED.

If Eddington couldn't keep up with Smarty early, HOW IN THE HELL IS HE GOING TO KEEP UP WITH HIM LATE? If Eddington didn't want to be up close early, it was Bailey's JOB to make sure Eddington is reminded what type of runner he is.....

LOOK AT THE TWO RACES EDDINGTON HAS WON IN HIS LIFE. In both of those races, he was a LENGTH off the early pace.....
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Old 06-11-2004, 08:12 AM   #14
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Zito and the racing gods

He did have a heckuva day. Three wins from four starts with the shortest at 19-1!
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Old 06-11-2004, 11:26 AM   #15
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I don't have Eddington's pps in front of me but I'm sure one of the wins was a Mdn and the other I believe was a NW1X at GP. I would also say its highly unlikely that there was anyone in those races with the speed and class of not only Smarty Jones but Purge, who also figured to be in the pace. If Purge and Eddington ran against each other, do you think Eddington could survive a duel against Purge? I don't think so. Now toss in Smarty and a speed-driven Rock Hard Ten. Maybe it was the owner or trainers decision to send Eddington but whoever decided on it must have rocks in their head.
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