Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are kidding?
Things break and fall apart all the time. Often interfering with all that doesn't.
If you ever ran a business, you would know a wise businessman anticipates "if it can go wrong, it will go wrong".

Here are just a few more than Actor listed for your very myopic consideration.

Warts
Hemorrhoids.
Bad breath
Disease
Birth defects
Mass Murderers
Stupid people

And.....

Certain mind-numbing religious types.

"Things break and fall apart all the time" because of the Fall of Man. God made that statement before the Fall.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

"If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them, without having himself tortured and executed in payment - ?" Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, page 287.

Because justice would not have been served and God would have proved himself to be as unrighteous as we are. God loves certain things: One of them is justice (Ps 11:7)

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Then "God's purposes" are predestined, ergo, man's choices are predestined, ergo, man has no free will.

Not so! You're assuming that "predestination" requires that God [b]directly[b] forces or coerces men to act. Cannot God bring outside providences into our lives that influence our choices? Use myself as an example.

Back in the day when I was King Rabble Rouser and Chief Hedonist living the good life, it would have never entered my mind to go see some religious documentary, such as the "Late Great Planet Earth". I was far too happy living my life as a practical atheist. But then, suddenly, in the midst of all this good living, plus doing well at the track, etc., I get struck with a liver disease. Not only did I get come down with this illness, which all doctors were familiar with, but I couldn't get two doctors to agree on a viable treatment. Because of this disagreement, my condition lingered on, not for weeks but for many months! And because it lingered on so long, the above mentioned documentary finally came out in movie houses in my area. And because I was bored stiff staying home so much, I basically chose that movie to see one evening because it was the closest theater to my house. And this was convenient because, after all, I wouldn't want to drive too far stoned on my good Mary Jane being the conscientious driver I am.

So...the upshot is that due to all these providences that God brought into my life at that time of my life, I made a choice (YES, I MADE THE CHOICE) to see a movie that normally and under other circumstances, I would have avoided like the plague.

What I just described above is my version of the apostle Paul's "Road to Damascus" conversion experience. The last thing Paul expected when traveling to Damascus to persecute and even murder Christians was to be converted to the very faith of the people he hated! Of course, Paul's experience is far more dramatic than mine, but the principle is the same: God took the initiative to intervene in both our lives at the right time and right place.

You mistakenly put God in a nice little box, thinking that if God's will is always done with believers and unbelievers alike, that this must involve the use of force or coercion. And that is the farthest thing from the truth.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I think I am done with you. A long response take it as you will. This is part of what I believe.

False dichotomy.

I don't subscribe to your "free will" or "no free will", black/white choice.
If a machine is damaged or incomplete, yes you may say it does not work or it does. However if that "machine" also has the ability to learn the ins and outs of machine repair, it has the potential to supersede mechanicalness.

Do you make free will choices or not? If not, tell us what is forcing you to to choose contrary to your will.

[boxcar]

The following passage provides us with a great example of how God's will will be accomplished in spite of the rebelliousness of and hatred for Him by unbelievers.

Phil 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NASB

Every tongue everywhere in the universe will confess that Jesus is Lord, and every knee everywhere in the universe will bow their knee to Jesus Christ. Believers will do these things, humbly, joyfully and willingly. Unbelievers will also do these things -- but not so willingly and certainly not joyfully but full of resentment. But does this mean for this latter group that God "forced" them to bow the knee and confess with the tongue? I bet most of you are thinking that God probably sends electric shocks or some such thing to their brains to get them to submit, right?

Or does He accomplish his will "naturally" -- since no man can behold the face of God and live (1Sam 6:20; Job 41:10). God's glory is so brilliant, so awesome, so indescribable, so majestic, so other-worldly that it would intimidate any unbeliever and entirely humble any believer. Two very different reactions -- but both accomplish God's will! And God did nothing to force his will on either group!

Ex 33:19-23
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
NIV

Every one us has been faced with circumstances in life in which we had to make hard choices we did not want to make. We had to make choices contrary to what we really wanted. But this doesn't mean that we don't have "free will". Our will simply isn't "free" under certain circumstances.

If you want to see a fantastic example in real life, Google "man vs. cougar" and then watch the YouTube vid. I'm sure the hiker on this trail in the woods did not want to return to where he started. But this big puddy he encountered along the way left him "no choice".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Because justice would not have been served and God would have proved himself to be as unrighteous as we are. God loves certain things: One of them is justice (Ps 11:7)

How did the holocaust serve justice? How does Down's Syndrome serve justice? How does COVID 19 serve justice?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

How did the holocaust serve justice? How does Down's Syndrome serve justice? How does COVID 19 serve justice?

Haven't you been listening? Adam and Eve defiantly ate an apple eons ago...and this pissed God off. Boxcar's God believes in killing a fly with a sledgehammer. He is "holy" that way.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

How did the holocaust serve justice? How does Down's Syndrome serve justice? How does COVID 19 serve justice?

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)! (This is commonly known as capital punishment.) Remember, death entails the [i]the process of dying[/b], hence all manner of diseases, infections, etc. that befall humanity will eventually result in death.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you make free will choices or not?

No.

Originally Posted by boxcar

If not, tell us what is forcing you to to choose contrary to your will.

I've explained this before.

The state of the universe at any given instant in time is determined by the state of the universe at the previous instant (plus or minus quantum uncertainty). Ultimately and "choice" a person makes is because a certain neuron in the brain fires. Which neuron fires is ultimately a random event controlled by the four primal forces: gravity, electric, strong and weak. The weak force seems have the greatest influence in randomness. Bottom line: "choice" is an illusion. Everything is random.

I've explained it for you. I cannot understand it for you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Haven't you been listening? Adam and Eve defiantly ate an apple eons ago...and this pissed God off. Boxcar's God believes in killing a fly with a sledgehammer. He is "holy" that way.

No, it means God is true to his word. Our first parents knew what the penalty. They willfully sinned with their eyes wide open.

But also...because God is true to his word, he has made good on his promise that the woman's seed (Christ) would one day crush the serpent's (Satan) head.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)! (This is commonly known as capital punishment.) Remember, death entails the [i]the process of dying[/b], hence all manner of diseases, infections, etc. that befall humanity will eventually result in death.

Scripture proves nothing! I'll return to this point later.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

No.

I've explained this before.

The state of the universe at any given instant in time is determined by the state of the universe at the previous instant (plus or minus quantum uncertainty). Ultimately and "choice" a person makes is because a certain neuron in the brain fires. Which neuron fires is ultimately a random event controlled by the four primal forces: gravity, electric, strong and weak. The weak force seems have the greatest influence in randomness. Bottom line: "choice" is an illusion. Everything is random.

I've explained it for you. I cannot understand it for you.

So, you're choices are not motivated by your desires? If you voted, did you desire to vote for Biden? And if so, how long ago were you aware of this desire?

Or...if you have not voted, do you plan on voting? And if so, who do you desire to vote for?

Or...have you ever desired anything in your entire life and acted upon that desire?

P.S. Before you ask me to define "desire" look it up.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, you're choices are not motivated by your desires?

I did not say that. For the sake of argument only, let us assume that said choices are motivated by desires. The next question is "what is the source of those desires?" The correct answer is evolution.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Or...have you ever desired anything in your entire life and acted upon that desire?

You're deflecting. We first must answer the question I posed, viz., "what is the source of those desires?"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I did not say that. For the sake of argument only, let us assume that said choices are motivated by desires. The next question is "what is the source of those desires?" The correct answer is evolution.

You're deflecting. We first must answer the question I posed, viz., "what is the source of those desires?"

No, I'm not deflecting at all. Your stupid theory implies that choices are made in a vacuum, which is the farthest thing from the truth. The choices we make are driven by our desires.

Also, if the "source" of our desires is evolution, which in your world is a universal, scientific principle, then why do humans vary so much in their desires. Didn't we all evolve the same way? Didn't we all climb out of the same primordial slime (or should that be soup)? Look at us physically. We all possess the same physical characteristics: one head, two eyes, one nose, two arms, two legs, two hands, ten toes, etc, etc. So...how come we don't possess the same desires?

And what in the world, does evolution have to do with our political choices?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you make free will choices or not? If not, tell us what is forcing you to to choose contrary to your will.

Too bad you never had kids.

Newborns have limited knowledge of everything. As they grow and mature and learn, their options to do what the wish increase. The "universe/god" starts us off helpless and shaky (we must learn to stand), but supplies us with the possibility of growth, physically, mentally and emphatically. The initial problem with infants, is the free choice of avoiding the counter-survival randomness and chance of things around us not a given, it must be acquired.

"God/the universe" is in both order and randomness. And in us, giving the possibility to wake to both.

Ignorance is at thew root of what you call evil.
God does not plan gay conversion of hollywood set designers, and an extremely inept POTUS, or allow mass murders to murder. No more than giving you constipation or inability to feel and have compassion.