Religion III

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You ask, yet, another stupid "why" question! Am I omniscient!?

However, if we look back in retrospect -- in hindsight -- didn't good come out of the Holocaust? How many years afterward before Israel was finally granted land in Palestine and became a state? Israel did garner quite a bit of sympathy from the world at the time -- even the godless U.N. jumped on the Israeli bandwagon with it's Resolution 181.

So if god enabled some mass murderer to kill millions of Christians, and then their ancestors got some free land, would that "nifty bargain" be a good deal?

Worth those innocent lives? Why would an all powerful deity make not only such a stupid deal, but also such an immoral one?

Why do you worship such a disgusting god?
Or is it just you, that is so disgusting?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

However, if we look back in retrospect -- in hindsight -- didn't good come out of the Holocaust? How many years afterward before Israel was finally granted land in Palestine and became a state? Israel did garner quite a bit of sympathy from the world at the time -- even the godless U.N. jumped on the Israeli bandwagon with it's Resolution 181.

The creation of the State of Israel after WWII was one of the worst and most ill considered events of the 20th century. The whole world felt guilty about the holocaust and their so-called solution is to take land away from a people who had occupied the land for centuries and give it to this displaced population. And why did they decide to do that? Because members of this displaced population conducted a campaign of terrorism. The result is a de facto war which persists to this day, and the U.S. is right in the middle of it.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

So if god enabled some mass murderer to kill millions of Christians, and then their ancestors got some free land, would that "nifty bargain" be a good deal?

Worth those innocent lives? Why would an all powerful deity make not only such a stupid deal, but also such an immoral one?

Why do you worship such a disgusting god?
Or is it just you, that is so disgusting?

God didn't enable anyone. All men are sinners by nature. Man cannot not sin! What part of this don't you get? If God removed all his grace from all men, this would be hell on earth! Neither you or I would be sitting at our keyboards discussing biblical theology. Much more likely, we'd be in extreme torment of our souls the way the Rich Man was in Jesus' story of the poor man Lazarus who, conversely, was at peace in Abrahams's bosom (Lk 16:19-23). The sheer fact that any one of us sinners is still alive and breathing is a testament to the goodness of God and his grace.

Go back and read what I posted to Thask.

Also, as explained very often on this forum, if God did not allow evil into this world and all the misery, sorrow and suffering that naturally accompanies evil, no one would ever repent of their sins and turn to God through Christ. If all was always hunk dory right up until the time we all breathed our last as we peacefully died in our sleep, everyone one of us would wind up in hell! But as it is, God, in his infinite wisdom manifests to the entire world both his kindness and severity.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God didn't enable anyone. All men are sinners by nature. Man cannot not sin! What part of this don't you get? If God removed all his grace from all men, this would be hell on earth! Neither you or I would be sitting at our keyboards discussing biblical theology. Much more likely, we'd be in extreme torment of our souls the way the Rich Man was in Jesus' story of the poor man Lazarus who, conversely, was at peace in Abrahams's bosom (Lk 16:19-23). The sheer fact that any one of us sinners is still alive and breathing is a testament to the goodness of God and his grace.

Go back and read what I posted to Thask.

Also, as explained very often on this forum, if God did not allow evil into this world and all the misery, sorrow and suffering that naturally accompanies evil, no one would ever repent of their sins and turn to God through Christ. If all was always hunk dory right up until the time we all breathed our last as we peacefully died in our sleep, everyone one of us would wind up in hell! But as it is, God, in his infinite wisdom manifests to the entire world both his kindness and severity.

If your god set the ball rolling and knows everything that will happen, and has the continuing power to affect men's lives, he is an accessory and complicit in those mass murders.

As I said before...

The builder built a lemon and now blames the bricks he himself forged.


You can't have it both ways.3

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

If your god set the ball rolling and knows everything that will happen, and has the continuing power to affect men's lives, he is an accessory and complicit in those mass murders.

As I said before...

The builder built a lemon and now blames the bricks he himself forged.


You can't have it both ways.3

No, he didn't build a lemon. The "driver behind the wheel", not the manufacturer, is responsible for all the human tragedy.

To say that God is at fault is to fault him for making man to be a free moral agent as God himself is -- to have the capacity to make free moral choices. What is your superior alternative to free will? You never have answered this question which I have posed numerous times. All your do is behave like a little whiny, girly-man. What is your superior alternative to free will? Answer this question!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, he didn't build a lemon. The "driver behind the wheel", not the manufacturer, is responsible for all the human tragedy.

To say that God is at fault is to fault him for making man to be a free moral agent as God himself is -- to have the capacity to make free moral choices. What is your superior alternative to free will? You never have answered this question which I have posed numerous times. All your do is behave like a little whiny, girly-man. What is your superior alternative to free will? Answer this question!

He bunky, didn't he build the "driver behind the wheel" in his own image? Why oh why would the manufacture leave out a pair of "moral glasses" for his motorists?

If you were indeed in contact with the manufacture you would know. You don't and build a shaky unstable house of metaphysical cards that topples over with the slightest scrutiny.

Try meditation to remove yourself from the midst of the conundrum.

YOU CAN NOT "FIGURE IT OUT" no matter how much you try

[hcap]

Box, when you observe your own frailness, and can quiet down the incessant movement of Manas, (Sanskrit: “thought”), in Indian philosophy, the human “mind,” that faculty which coordinates sensory impressions before they are presented to the consciousness.

You may have glimpses of "more than Manas"

God or Param Atman in Sanskrit, is waiting for man to make the effort.
Michelangelo describes the normal state of affairs eloquently, of man barely reaching.



God's grace in western theology is providing those "moral glasses", but man though ignorance not of free choice, is not aware they are at arm's reach.

Ignorance of what is possible is the crux of the problem.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, he didn't build a lemon. The "driver behind the wheel", not the manufacturer, is responsible for all the human tragedy.

To say that God is at fault is to fault him for making man to be a free moral agent as God himself is -- to have the capacity to make free moral choices. What is your superior alternative to free will? You never have answered this question which I have posed numerous times. All your do is behave like a little whiny, girly-man. What is your superior alternative to free will? Answer this question!

Whether you say that "God hardened someone's heart", or that he "withheld his grace from someone"...it all amounts to the same thing. God does not allow man to fully exercise his presumed "free will"...preferring instead to interfere with the decisions of men in order to ensure that God's predetermined wishes ultimately come to fruition. If man is prevented from fully using his "free will"...then he has no "free will". He is only a puppet with God pulling the strings.

The bible's depiction of God is that of a tyrannical trickster, who forces man's hand and then blames him for his "sinful" life. No wonder the Christian believers are fleeing their churches in droves. You can't expect to fool all of the people, all of the time.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

He bunky, didn't he build the "driver behind the wheel" in his own image? Why oh why would the manufacture leave out a pair of "moral glasses" for his motorists?

If you were indeed in contact with the manufacture you would know. You don't and build a shaky unstable house of metaphysical cards that topples over with the slightest scrutiny.

Try meditation to remove yourself from the midst of the conundrum.

YOU CAN NOT "FIGURE IT OUT" no matter how much you try

Yes, he built the driver in his own image and when he was down with his entire creation, he looked upon it all and said it was very good (Gen 1:31). God didn't build anything with defects.

And you still haven't answered my question: Since you insist that God was the big screw-up here in creating man in his image, which included being a moral being having the capacity to make free moral choices, then if you were God what would be your infinitely superior alternative to free will.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Whether you say that "God hardened someone's heart", or that he "withheld his grace from someone"...it all amounts to the same thing. God does not allow man to fully exercise his presumed "free will"...preferring instead to interfere with the decisions of men in order to ensure that God's predetermined wishes ultimately come to fruition. If man is prevented from fully using his "free will"...then he has no "free will". He is only a puppet with God pulling the strings.

The bible's depiction of God is that of a tyrannical trickster, who forces man's hand and then blames him for his "sinful" life. No wonder the Christian believers are fleeing their churches in droves. You can't expect to fool all of the people, all of the time.

Man is not prevented from using his free will; but he will ultimately use it to accomplish God's purposes, since God is the sovereign King of the universe.

Since man does not deserve God's grace, then God can freely choose to either bestow or withhold that grace from anyone. God is not morally obligated to bestow grace on anyone. By the same token, he can freely choose to remove the power of his grace from anyone, in which case that person will act more fully in accordance with his depraved nature.

Also, if God were a "tyrannical trickster", why would he leave his glory in heaven, humble himself and condescend to take the form of man in His Son so that he could keep his own law and die on behalf of his elect?

It seems to me that you're just pissed off that God did not choose to save everyone.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It seems to me that you're just pissed off that God did not choose to save everyone.

"If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them, without having himself tortured and executed in payment - ?" Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, page 287.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Man is not prevented from using his free will; but he will ultimately use it to accomplish God's purposes, ...

Then "God's purposes" are predestined, ergo, man's choices are predestined, ergo, man has no free will.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God didn't build anything with defects.

What about Asperger's Syndrome? Or Tourette's Syndrome? What about Down's Syndrome? Shall I go on?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yes, he built the driver in his own image and when he was down with his entire creation, he looked upon it all and said it was very good (Gen 1:31). God didn't build anything with defects.

You are kidding?
Things break and fall apart all the time. Often interfering with all that doesn't.
If you ever ran a business, you would know a wise businessman anticipates "if it can go wrong, it will go wrong".

Here are just a few more than Actor listed for your very myopic consideration.

Warts
Hemorrhoids.
Bad breath
Disease
Birth defects
Mass Murderers
Stupid people

And.....

Certain mind-numbing religious types.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you still haven't answered my question: Since you insist that God was the big screw-up here in creating man in his image, which included being a moral being having the capacity to make free moral choices, then if you were God what would be your infinitely superior alternative to free will.

I think I am done with you. A long response take it as you will. This is part of what I believe.

False dichotomy.

I don't subscribe to your "free will" or "no free will", black/white choice.
If a machine is damaged or incomplete, yes you may say it does not work or it does. However if that "machine" also has the ability to learn the ins and outs of machine repair, it has the potential to supersede mechanicalness.

Whether a divine being or biological evolution created a self aware creature after billions of years, who can learn it's defects, free will becomes possible.

In non-dualitic, Hinduism of the Advaita Vedanta tradition of Adi Shankara, both the creative side of Paramatman and the destructive side are ever present in a "cosmic dance"

Or

A Time for Everything

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

a time to be born and a time to die

The lighter creative side of Paramatman working thru the darker side has throws us a rope woven by others to avoid getting carried away by chance, randomness and accident.

We are in a sense, blood cells on a cosmic being unaware of that being and subject to all the randomness and order within the "blood vessel" we are moving in.

We theretofore live in a remote section of the "universe" or existence. The non-dualistic suchness of existence, where we are, the divine only presents us with a faint signal of the complete divine being. If we are if lucky, sense aspects. However others before us have moved closer to the "heart and brain" of that divine being.

Among them, great teachers, saints, and bodhisattvas and mystics fashioned various types of messages and "ladder" to help us climb above that all encompassing "dance", which profoundly confuses us by ever changing movement or samsara.

It is up to us to make an effort and search for those messages and "ladders"

Box, I sincerely doubt you will ever find the way only thinking without feeling. Your heartless ledger sheet of the Holocaust and the creation of the state of Israel tells me.of your lack of Bhakti,

Bhakti, (Sanskrit: “devotion”) in Hinduism, a movement emphasizing the intense emotional love and compassion, is absent in your connection to the divine and other sentient beings.

You oversimplify and boast incessantly about your inane oversimplifications when you should really learn stillness. Love, compassion would do you good.
Try being a "bleeding heart liberal" to your fellow beings