Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Haven't you noticed? Life in this world is pure hell. Like I said, he's not doing a good job at it.

But don't worry. He doesn't exist.

Maybe your life is pure hell, but not everyone's! There is still a lot of good and beauty in this world. But in hell, there won't be any!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You've been holding religious debates with Boxcar here for HOW LONG? And you still need more proof that he has no "real connection with the divine"? You aren't exactly a "quick study", hcap.

And I suppose you fancy yourself as Quick Draw McGraw in the mental acuity department, heh?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And if Trump loses this election...Boxcar will say that Biden was "installed" by the DEVIL. God already erred when he "installed" Obama...and he'd never make the same mistake twice.

God doesn't err, anymore than he erred when he raised up some of the worst human leaders in history (ancient and modern history alike). God installed the peanut farmer, the Slickster and Obama -- and even bad characters before them. It's all in the plan. If Biden should win, I figure God is simply giving this godless country what it deserves.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

We all fail miserably because none of us are omniscient and therefore cannot see how each and every detail of every human life is woven into God's plan to fulfill his eschatological purposes. But be sure to let us know when you obtain that power.

Then how can you know your moron was "installed" by god?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Then how can you know your moron was "installed" by god?

Because the scriptures that you vehemently hate tell us that God is THE sovereign king of this world and that he raises up its rulers and tears them down. God even raised up Pontius Pilate, knowing that this infidel would unjustly condemn His Beloved and righteous Son to death.

John 19:10-11
10 Pilate therefore said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin."
NASB

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God doesn't err, anymore than he erred when he raised up some of the worst human leaders in history (ancient and modern history alike). God installed the peanut farmer, the Slickster and Obama -- and even bad characters before them. It's all in the plan. If Biden should win, I figure God is simply giving this godless country what it deserves.

So your god interviewees all the time. Why did god install Hitler? And did god install Trump to remind us of that earlier bloody installation?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

So your god interviewees all the time. Why did god install Hitler? And did god install Trump to remind us of that earlier bloody installation?

You ask, yet, another stupid "why" question! Am I omniscient!?

However, if we look back in retrospect -- in hindsight -- didn't good come out of the Holocaust? How many years afterward before Israel was finally granted land in Palestine and became a state? Israel did garner quite a bit of sympathy from the world at the time -- even the godless U.N. jumped on the Israeli bandwagon with it's Resolution 181.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Actor

Haven't you noticed? Life in this world is pure hell.

Wow! That is very telling.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You ask, yet, another stupid "why" question! Am I omniscient!?

However, if we look back in retrospect -- in hindsight -- didn't good come out of the Holocaust? How many years afterward before Israel was finally granted land in Palestine and became a state? Israel did garner quite a bit of sympathy from the world at the time -- even the godless U.N. jumped on the Israeli bandwagon with it's Resolution 181.

God set the whole ball in motion AND planned everything down to the last detail. 6 million plus died directly in the Holocaust and millions more in WWII.

Could not an all powerful deity who created his "chosen" people struck a better deal with himself. After all, who else exactly was around at the foundation of the world?

Let's say a sacrificing a dozen innocents instead of millions:lol:

Sounds like your god is fond of Trump the businessman for Trump's ineptness. Could that be that is why your god installed Donald? God must be a soft touch for "blood sacrifices", mass murder, and love of lack of proper business planning.

Gee I am not all knowing. but filled in the blanks

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Wow! That is very telling.

He's a liberal. And so many of them are miserable and totally pessimistic and negative and fearful. Deep in their soul they truly do live in a culture of Death -- of Darkness.

Even Biden, during this last debate, talked about "dark" times being here or coming -- something along these line. I didn't listen to the debate but my wife mentioned it. This kind of sentiment is so typical of so many liberals -- doom, gloom, darkness -- and yet at the same time, having all this negativity in their soul, they swear they're the smartest people in the room and they're going to fix everything -- theyu're going to be the light bearers in this world!

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And I suppose you fancy yourself as Quick Draw McGraw in the mental acuity department, heh?

I am quick enough to know that you are doing the Devil's Work here. Whatever negativity can be connected to Christianity stands out in you in bold relief. Even the other Christians here want nothing to do with you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I am quick enough to know that you are doing the Devil's Work here. Whatever negativity can be connected to Christianity stands out in you in bold relief. Even the other Christians here want nothing to do with you.

And this is why:

Is God Sovereign in Salvation?

The core message of the gospel is that God saves sinners from judgment through His Son Jesus Christ. Scripture further reveals that God saves His people according to His sovereign purpose, a decision He made even before He created the world (Rom. 9:23; Eph. 1:4; Titus 1:2). However, our 2020 State of Theology survey suggests that this teaching, which tends to humble man and exalt God, is rejected by most Christians in America today.

According to the survey, only 38% of professing U.S. evangelicals* now agree with the following statement: “God chose the people he would save before he created the world.” We recently sat down with Ligonier Teaching Fellow Dr. Stephen Nichols to ask him what this response reveals about the church in America.

[If God were not absolutely sovereign over the redemption of His people, another precious truth of the gospel would be destroyed—that we are saved by grace alone and not by our works (Eph. 2:8–9). By rejecting the Bible’s teaching about sovereign grace, Christians undermine their own assurance of salvation. We hope the 2020 results from The State of Theology survey will encourage believers to search the Scriptures and discern whether their beliefs are derived more from cultural values or from God’s inspired, inerrant revelation.

Is it any wonder Jesus warned:

Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide , and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14 "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.?
NASB

Frankly, I'm rather surprised that the "few" comprise as many as 38% of professing evangelicals. I would have thought somewhere in the 20 to 25% range.

P.S. The above was taken from an email sent by Ligonier Ministries.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

According to the survey, only 38% of professing U.S. evangelicals* now agree with the following statement: “God chose the people he would save before he created the world.” We recently sat down with Ligonier Teaching Fellow Dr. Stephen Nichols to ask him what this response reveals about the church in America.

Look...I know that you are a cat lover, so, I can't say that you are without at least some redeeming value. Let me ask you this:

When we assert that "God chose the people he would save before he created the world"...this does absolve the nonbelievers of the blame for their disbelief, doesn't it? I mean...if God made a decision long before I was born to exclude me from his group of "chosen ones"...how can I shoulder the blame for my decrepit spiritual condition? God has purposely "withheld his grace" from me...and now he is blaming me for living a "graceless" life? This is madness.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

We all fail miserably because none of us are omniscient and therefore cannot see how each and every detail of every human life is woven into God's plan to fulfill his eschatological purposes. But be sure to let us know when you obtain that power.

I cannot use it because this planet has a kryptonite core!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Look...I know that you are a cat lover, so, I can't say that you are without at least some redeeming value. Let me ask you this:

When we assert that "God chose the people he would save before he created the world"...this does absolve the nonbelievers of the blame for their disbelief, doesn't it? I mean...if God made a decision long before I was born to exclude me from his group of "chosen ones"...how can I shoulder the blame for my decrepit spiritual condition? God has purposely "withheld his grace" from me...and now he is blaming me for living a "graceless" life? This is madness.

No it doesn't because this same God also in eternity "past" ordained the Fall of Man; yet, God did not coerce or force Adam in any way, shape or form to distrust him and, therefore, rebel against Him by partaking of the forbidden fruit. Read the following slowly and carefully because there are several ramifications to this biblically-based theology.

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

In the past week I have had several people ask me how Adam's original sin come about since he did not have a fallen nature to contend with. Thus it's not that Adam and Eve were originally prevented from obeying God due to a sinful nature, as we are now. Also since God is NOT the author of evil, didn't make Adam sin, nor did HE put the sinful desire within them, so the question is really how (or why) did Adam originally sin? This is really an attempt to understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and freewill in the beginning, prior to the fall.

By confession we believe that God created human beings "with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change." (WSF IV.2) This is to say that man was created in such a way where he was not yet sealed in righteousness as he will be in glory, but created with a an inclination toward good. Why evil temptation was able to overcome that inclination, the Scripture does not reveal, so any dogmatic response would be speculative. So while there are indeed mysteries that are not fully revealed to us in Scripture ... on the other hand, there are some things revealed that we do know and from these we can draw some conclusions.

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

It is important that we first consider the alternative to God ordaining the fall event to show that it is really quite and untenable and unsustainable position. The truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. The Bible plainly teaches that man is responsible for the sin he commits and it also teaches that God is sovereign. You would be correct theologically to say that God is not the author of evil and that man alone is culpable for the sin he commits. You must also consider, however, that God is sovereign and has thus left nothing up to chance. That word "nothing" is a universal negative. For if chance were to exist then, of course, God would not be sovereign and thus, God would not be God.

God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even an Arminian who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin coersively he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11).

As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke.

Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God planed in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question.

So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly.

There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

These Scriptures texts must be accepted as authoritative. Someone might argue that they were an exception ... but there is no biblical rationale for believing that. It must be admitted that the Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains evil events and remains blameless, events which include the self-determined choices of man.

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28). (Piper)

In conclusion, when determining the truth of a matter we must never simply use naked unaided human logic, but always let our logic be ruled by the highest presupposition which is the Holy Scriptures. We may not like the result but what God has revealed, this we must embrace and teach. Otherwise we make God in our own image, and present to others a God other than the one who reveals Himself in Scripture.

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...cree_fall.html

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For more on compatibilism I highly recommed D.A. Carson's Book, How Long O Lord: Reflections on Suffering and Evil