Betfair to increase charges on big hitters - Horse Racing News | Racing Post

[Judge Gallivan]

Originally Posted by Charli125

Well then that blows my entire theory out of the water. I guess you have to make a lot of money before you get hit with the fee, but back to the original question, I don't understand how this helps the small player other than that they're not going to pay the fee.

In theory if you remove smart money/people from the market it becomes easier for the small player to get a good price because that price won't be immediately taken by a smarter operator or his bot.

The big picture is that Betfair is now becoming just another bookie. They even publically talk about "an integrated exchange and sportsbook combination".

So this charge was put in place to get rid of traders and bot owners which will be replaced by Betfair's own bots and traders and to effectively get rid of consistent winners just like all other (British) bookies.

250,000 pounds is a lot of money, but it is lifetime figure. So for people who are on Betfair from the beginning it comes to 2,000 pounds per month. So that means that there will be no more people betting on Betfair for a living.

I think that in a long term this will open a door for a rival exchange and Betfair will lose more by losing its place as a virtually only exchange than it will gain by winning a bigger share of their customers money.

[Judge Gallivan]

Originally Posted by gm10

Whatever their real motives are, it's a dumb move. People are just going to go to Betdaq which is already a cheaper alternative as it is. I've started using it as well. The liquidity isn't bad, even for American racing.

The liquidity isn't bad - it's awful, but it could change in the months to come.

[Some_One]

Usually only the tracks without Betfair SP i would rate with bad liquidity, the ones with Betfair SP are pretty good IMO.

[Judge Gallivan]

Originally Posted by Some_One

Usually only the tracks without Betfair SP i would rate with bad liquidity, the ones with Betfair SP are pretty good IMO.

We both meant liquidity at Betdaq.

[BreadandButter]

Originally Posted by Some_One

Usually only the tracks without Betfair SP i would rate with bad liquidity, the ones with Betfair SP are pretty good IMO.

With Betfair SP isn't that the same as placing a bet with a book? How is it different? It's not a peer to peer exchange.

[Judge Gallivan]

Originally Posted by BreadandButter

With Betfair SP isn't that the same as placing a bet with a book? How is it different? It's not a peer to peer exchange.

Yes it is. They match those who want to bet at SP with those who want to lay at SP and/or with the existing back/lay offers at the off time.

[pondman]

Originally Posted by Charli125

It's because the biggest players have computer programs that remove the liquidity from the pools. Instantly removing the liquidity makes it so the smaller player doesn't have a chance to make a bet(if they have a similar odds line to the big player). It's very similar to the stock market teams that trade single stocks thousands of times a day every time they see it move off of where they think it should be..

They mutual pool isn't exclusive to betfair, is it? Unless they provide a special service, last minute ques and personal service that is instrumental to instant computer driven decisions, I also don't see the advantage of the large better vs a small better. It might be a nice service to have, which they should have to pay for, but I don't see the large better eliminating my ability to make a profit.

Your comparative analysis of the stock market would be illegal in the United State. You'd go to jail if you tried to manipulate the mutual pull as you describe it. You'd probably go to jail if you tried to manipulate a stock by buy and selling a stock thousands of times a day.

[Charli125]

Originally Posted by pondman

They mutual pool isn't exclusive to betfair, is it? Unless they provide a special service, last minute ques and personal service that is instrumental to instant computer driven decisions, I also don't see the advantage of the large better vs a small better. It might be a nice service to have, which they should have to pay for, but I don't see the large better eliminating my ability to make a profit.

It's not a mutual pool, it's exchange wagering. It's an entirely different beast. But to answer your question, yes, the pool is exclusive to Betfair.

Originally Posted by pondman

Your comparative analysis of the stock market would be illegal in the United State. You'd go to jail if you tried to manipulate the mutual pull as you describe it. You'd probably go to jail if you tried to manipulate a stock by buy and selling a stock thousands of times a day.

It's definitely legal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_trading

[BreadandButter]

Originally Posted by Judge Gallivan

Yes it is. They match those who want to bet at SP with those who want to lay at SP and/or with the existing back/lay offers at the off time.

How can they guarantee there is money to match both sides? If I were to put out $5,000 USD to back a horse – would it all get matched? What if it were $10,000, $50,000 etc.?

It appears they are just booking the bet themselves. If not why care who wins and loses? If they are just taking a percentage of the winning tickets the only thing that should matter is total handle.

It is no different than a US track stating they are no longer going to accept bets greater than $1,000 because those large wagers are often lower the payouts for many of the smaller players. The US tracks could care less because they are making their money off of a percentage of the handle. If Betfair was a true exchange they would be operating the same way taking a percentage of the money exchanged - it wouldn't matter if one person was winning more than another.

[Judge Gallivan]

Originally Posted by BreadandButter

How can they guarantee there is money to match both sides? If I were to put out $5,000 USD to back a horse – would it all get matched? What if it were $10,000, $50,000 etc.?

It appears they are just booking the bet themselves. If not why care who wins and loses? If they are just taking a percentage of the winning tickets the only thing that should matter is total handle.

It is no different than a US track stating they are no longer going to accept bets greater than $1,000 because those large wagers are often lower the payouts for many of the smaller players. The US tracks could care less because they are making their money off of a percentage of the handle. If Betfair was a true exchange they would be operating the same way taking a percentage of the money exchanged - it wouldn't matter if one person was winning more than another.

They're not booking the bet themselves. If you put $50,000 to back the horse maybe first few thousands would be matched at normal prices and the rest would be matched at ridiculously low prices, the lowest being 1.01. Remember, a layer would have to risk just $500 to match your $50,000 at 1.01 and there is always a lot of money offered at 1.01 hoping for someone to make such a mistake. Therefore a SP for that horse would be close to 1.01

The other thing is that a bet at SP is not guaranteed to be matched.

[gm10]

Originally Posted by Judge Gallivan

The liquidity isn't bad - it's awful, but it could change in the months to come.

It's not awful. It comes later than on Betfair, but I usually don't have any problems getting the same price.

[Judge Gallivan]

Originally Posted by gm10

It's not awful. It comes later than on Betfair, but I usually don't have any problems getting the same price.

Yes, you have to wait for British evening racing to be over, but I'm hoping it is going to get better.

[Charli125]

I posted this in the other thread about Betfair. If anyone isn't understanding the Betfair SP aspect, read this article.

http://www.betortrade.com/understan...ice-betfair-sp/

[edmond1]

I have paid over $3000 in charges now and very upset. I have cut down my betting on Betfair by over 50% recently and experimenting with Betdaq which seems to be improving especially since they only charge 2.5% and no Premium Charges. Would be nice if they had a 1-800 # and offer markets on Hollywood Park.

REMEMBER I AM JUST A RELATIVELY SMALL BETTOR USING NO SOPHISTICATED COMPUTER INTERFACES AND AM PAYING THESE RIDICULOUS CHARGES. LET'S GO BETDAQ....

[BreadandButter]

I will agree it can't be proven it Betfair is indeed booking bets themselves.

However, the question remains - if Betfair is merely taking a commission on winning bets - why in the world would they start taking commissions of 60% on select players that have proven to be successful?

It contradicts their own logic by offering reduced commission rates based upon one's previous weekly handle. Betfair reduces one's commission (from the base 5%) on winning bets based upon the previous weeks action. Why not just charge everyone a standard 5% across the board?

In the US tracks and ADWs are doing the opposite - they are offering rebates to those players that wager the greatest amount of money.

Why? Because they take a percentage of the money wagered - they don't care if you win or lose. If you win even better - they know you'll continue to bet.

What if any track or ADW stated that if an individual were to have lifetime winnings exceeding $350k they are now subject to an increased takeout?