Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 05-25-2021, 12:20 PM   #571
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by rastajenk View Post
I wonder if price-gouging has begun yet on pitchforks and torches. Is this what participating in a mob is like?
What silliness. Bob Baffert is a fabulously rich man who can retire in comfort.

We are trying to get cheaters out of the sport, not anything else.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-25-2021, 12:58 PM   #572
Elkchester Road
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Near Lexington, KY
Posts: 3,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
Right. Broader point- Churchill has all sorts of leverage here.
Hopefully, dilanesp...they do.
__________________
Just when you least expect it...just what you least expect-The Pet Shop Boys.
Elkchester Road is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-25-2021, 06:02 PM   #573
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
What silliness. Bob Baffert is a fabulously rich man who can retire in comfort.

We are trying to get cheaters out of the sport, not anything else.
I looked it up last week, thirty million net worth. Bob will be fine financially. His reputation probably not.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-26-2021, 10:27 PM   #574
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-26-2021, 10:49 PM   #575
Gamblin4ever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
I read the article, and imo, both suits are ridiculous and should be thrown out. If the split comes back positive, then BB should be suspended and fined (not the slap on wrist most trainers get). I don't think this would be a RICO case. Correct me if I'm wrong. How could this be racketeering?

Last edited by Gamblin4ever; 05-26-2021 at 10:51 PM.
Gamblin4ever is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 07:02 AM   #576
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamblin4ever View Post
I read the article, and imo, both suits are ridiculous and should be thrown out. If the split comes back positive, then BB should be suspended and fined (not the slap on wrist most trainers get). I don't think this would be a RICO case. Correct me if I'm wrong. How could this be racketeering?
My only guess is that one of them knows about an ongoing FBI investigation.

However IMO there is some merit to the allegations. Hopefully more information comes out including revisiting the sudden deaths
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 08:59 AM   #577
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
I know nothing about the law and this may not be a popular opinion right now, but I think it would be terrible for the industry if these lawsuits were successful. If they were successful, we'd have endless litigation every time there was a positive. You'd have to be an idiot to remain a trainer even if you were just using therapeutics as recommended. You could still have an accidental overage or contamination. The sport has to be policed with fines and suspensions that have some real teeth when appropriate. Keep lawyers out of it.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 10:12 AM   #578
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I know nothing about the law and this may not be a popular opinion right now, but I think it would be terrible for the industry if these lawsuits were successful. If they were successful, we'd have endless litigation every time there was a positive. You'd have to be an idiot to remain a trainer even if you were just using therapeutics as recommended. You could still have an accidental overage or contamination. The sport has to be policed with fines and suspensions that have some real teeth when appropriate. Keep lawyers out of it.
It's worse than that. The reaction to a successful lawsuit (and to be clear, every one of these lawsuits is frivolous and borderline unethical) would be to remove the immediate payout of winning tickets after a race, so nobody gets sued. You'd get your winnings in a week, after the results come back.

And that is truly why the plaintiffs in these suits (not just the lawyers, but the plaintiffs) are complete douchebags. You know who benefits from bettors assuming the risk of PED's? That's right, bettors. WE'RE the ones who want our money back immediately before the tests come in.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 10:15 AM   #579
Vinnie
Registered User
 
Vinnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Spaghetti Junction and Frustration Blvd.
Posts: 1,884
Interesting points you have made, however, this morning I was thinking only fleetingly of how I would feel if I would have bet heavily on the #7 Mandaloun in the Derby and lost because of the idea that possibly something quite nefarious may have occurred, and especially if it is later determined that it actually did. WOW!! With full disclosure, I bet on the #15 Rock Your World so the race was over for me in the first several moments. On the other hand, placing myself in the shoes of those mentioned previously, I believe I would be seeking some form of compensation or redress. If it is found to be true it is nothing short of theft.
__________________
Warm Regards,

Vinnie

"All Human error is impatience; a premature renunciation of method"- F. Kafka
Vinnie is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 10:37 AM   #580
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
Interesting points you have made, however, this morning I was thinking only fleetingly of how I would feel if I would have bet heavily on the #7 Mandaloun in the Derby and lost because of the idea that possibly something quite nefarious may have occurred, and especially if it is later determined that it actually did. WOW!! With full disclosure, I bet on the #15 Rock Your World so the race was over for me in the first several moments. On the other hand, placing myself in the shoes of those mentioned previously, I believe I would be seeking some form of compensation or redress. If it is found to be true it is nothing short of theft.
No it isn't. The risk that you lose to someone who is doping a horse is known and assumed. If you don't like it, nobody forces you to bet on horse races.

Indeed, horseplayers take PED use into account, by betting down the odds on super-trainers. These are suits by losers who failed to properly weigh the influence of Baffert in their handicapping. They deserve nothing back and ought to be ashamed of themselves for filing these meritless suits.
dilanesp is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 11:05 AM   #581
Gamblin4ever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
Interesting points you have made, however, this morning I was thinking only fleetingly of how I would feel if I would have bet heavily on the #7 Mandaloun in the Derby and lost because of the idea that possibly something quite nefarious may have occurred, and especially if it is later determined that it actually did. WOW!! With full disclosure, I bet on the #15 Rock Your World so the race was over for me in the first several moments. On the other hand, placing myself in the shoes of those mentioned previously, I believe I would be seeking some form of compensation or redress. If it is found to be true it is nothing short of theft.
I understand bettors feeling they were ripped off. But remember Gamine tested positive for this same drug and BB was able to show he was in guidelines on stopping before the cutoff date for withdrawal time and she still tested positive.
These lawsuits, if able to continue , will cause lawsuits every time a bettor feels they were cheated. I agree with most on here about getting rid of cheaters and changing rules. I believe if the split comes back positive, then suspend and fine BB for the overage even though I don't believe it helped MS win. With RYW's problems at the start of the race, that helped MS win more than the drug IMO.
Gamblin4ever is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 11:06 AM   #582
Gamblin4ever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
No it isn't. The risk that you lose to someone who is doping a horse is known and assumed. If you don't like it, nobody forces you to bet on horse races.

Indeed, horseplayers take PED use into account, by betting down the odds on super-trainers. These are suits by losers who failed to properly weigh the influence of Baffert in their handicapping. They deserve nothing back and ought to be ashamed of themselves for filing these meritless suits.
Gamblin4ever is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 11:52 AM   #583
The_Turf_Monster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
Fwiw my only bet in the Derby was decent money on Medina Spirit across the board because I figured it would be doped up, I didn’t make it past who the trainer was in the program. Horseplayers take this into, the PP allows for a piece of descriptive analytics, there’s nothing predictive that it allows
The_Turf_Monster is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 01:00 PM   #584
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
These are suits by losers who failed to properly weigh the influence of Baffert in their handicapping.
I disagree. IMO, these are suits brought on by people who are justifiably enraged with the outright cheating that's going on in the game, and who have the means and the inclination to voice that frustration in a more public manner than we do here. The lawsuits are more visible to the general public, and have a better chance of bringing about some eventual positive change...whereas our never-ending bickering on forums such as this clearly serves no purpose at all.

Your assertion that Baffert's cheating could somehow be "properly weighed" in our handicapping process is too ridiculous to deserve a reply...and it reveals your ignorance in all matters of a "handicapping" nature. Stop pretending to be a real handicapper, and stick to the law...and to limit holdem.
__________________
Live to play another day.

Last edited by thaskalos; 05-27-2021 at 01:08 PM.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-27-2021, 02:41 PM   #585
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Your assertion that Baffert's cheating could somehow be "properly weighed" in our handicapping process is too ridiculous to deserve a reply..
I agree with what you are saying if you include the word "properly".

The issue is that we often don't know when or why a horse jumps up. We just know that a lot of them do for certain trainers and we should try to build it into our thinking. This problem goes back decades for me and I still struggle with it. Some people have access to information and know WHEN to bet. The rest of us are using stats and darts making very inexact guesses.

A few months back I was part of long discussion about a certain Baffert horse that everyone thought was overbet. Even after she lost I kept saying she was more likely to move up than everyone appreciated. I wasn't just thinking of great training and hay and oats at the time. I was including other possibilities. I don't know exactly what's going on and when. But I have data and experience.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 05-27-2021 at 02:44 PM.
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.