Why is it harder to win gate-to-wire on turf?

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Horseplayersbet.com

My two cents. I think that because most races are won off the pace on the turf these days, just like when it comes to artificial surfaces, many jockeys and trainers with the best horses in the race will use this as part of their game plan. Unless the horse is a need to lead in order to win type, they'll take back. Plus, it is one less thing to overcome if the horse's owner thinks after a loss: "What the heck, you went to the lead and horses don't usually go wire to wire anymore. Why did you do that?"

In other words, coming from behind on artificial surfaces and turf with the best horses have become more pronounced today than ever before.

I tend to agree that it may be a jockey thing more than a horse/surface thing today. Call it history or tradition or whatever, but it appears that when a jockey gets on the turf they automatically think "stay in the pack" and "have a big finish left".

[pondman]

Originally Posted by Redboard

So why do you think that it’s harder to wire the field on turf? I had always thought that you had to be more careful when running on grass. An analogy I can think of is that suppose one is running on a sandy beach.

Grass is an equalizer. Horses that have injuries in the rear will find it much easier on grass than on dirt. A horse with reoccurring problems in the rear will suffer much more on dirt than on the grass. By the time they get to the half they are feeling it on dirt, and will not want to go after the leader. This is less true on firm well maintained grass courses. It's easier for a horse to propel themselves on grass than dirt when they are tired. Therefore more horses will be able to close late.

[elhelmete]

Every time this comes up, I think about that race replay video from a few years back about a 2+ mile race over the jumps where one horse goes to the lead and wins by like a 1/4 mile.

In the comments there was a lot of chatter about this being a jockey phenomenon more than a surface issue. Kind of like that jocks believe it to be true so they ride that way.

[pondman]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

Every time this comes up, I think about that race replay video from a few years back about a 2+ mile race over the jumps where one horse goes to the lead and wins by like a 1/4 mile.

In the comments there was a lot of chatter about this being a jockey phenomenon more than a surface issue. Kind of like that jocks believe it to be true so they ride that way.

This won't be true in the majority of U.S. thoroughbred flat races.

[sammy the sage]

somebody should interview "Little Mike"....

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by sammy the sage

somebody should interview "Little Mike"....

Thats the horse I was goign to bring up "LIttle Mike" did it on the front end several times in graded company

[cj]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

Thats the horse I was goign to bring up "LIttle Mike" did it on the front end several times in graded company

Nobody said it can't be done, just that it is harder.

Haven't Little Mike's biggest wins been from a little off the pace anyway?

[Dark Horse]

Another factor may be pedigree. The difference between turf sprints and routes is rather interesting, suggesting that the surface itself is not the big difference maker; it's the surface plus the distance.

On kickback. Most speeds on dirt are speeds because they don't like the dirt in their face. On turf there's no need. Turf races have a more relaxed atmosphere early on. Less frantic. That may help explain why a rider like Nakatani is so much better on turf than on dirt.

[ultracapper]

Very seldom see a sub 23 final quarter in a dirt mile race, but you do every now and then in a turf mile race, and it's 90% of the time from a closer. I think the horses naturally are a little faster on turf, and if a horse is able to conserve it's energy in the early stages, it can really blast off as they straighten for home. It's not entirely out of the question in SoCal to see a horse make up 5 or 6 lengths in the lane in a mile race that clocks 1:10.4 1:35.0

[ultracapper]

Originally Posted by sammy the sage

somebody should interview "Little Mike"....

Love the Bastiat quote at the bottom of your posts. Read him years ago. Ever read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand? A little dramatized, but makes the point.

[FormalGold1]

The Tin Man was devastating on the front in graded stakes.

[classhandicapper]

IMO, "for whatever reason" it's harder to "sustain moves" on turf. It doesn't matter whether it's early (as in a speed horse running too fast early) or in the middle (as in a premature move to the lead by a closer or mid pack horse), it's tougher to do that and win on turf going long.

On turf, IMO, the idea is get into a decent position while rationing speed and not making any severe moves. Then you close with a shorter 2F-3F flourish that can be sustained to the wire.

On dirt, if a closer makes a premature move, the horse will hang and it will typically only cost it a couple of lengths/positions (unless of course the pace was savage). If you do the same thing on turf, half the field might pass you late.

IMO, it's not just about front runners. It's about the ability to sustain moves.

(and I agree that kickback and drafting is probably an issue)

[1st time lasix]

Originally Posted by FormalGold1

The Tin Man was devastating on the front in graded stakes.

Tin Man got an easy lead in The Arlington Million and I turned to my partner at the half mile mark---"lets go to the windows"

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by sammy the sage

somebody should interview "Little Mike"....

Presious Passion was another speed turfer. Although I always thought that’s a terrible name for a male horse.

[arno]

A much lower percentage of turf races are Maiden races than dirt races.
You just don't see that many Maiden races on the grass at many tracks.

Maidens have higher percentage of wire to wire winners due to the fact
many a maiden race is either a first time starter who is just much better and the jockey just shoots him out of gate or a horse dropping to maiden claimer facing absolutely nothing and jockey knows it and goes to lead.