Ultimate Race Track Investor

[Lefty]

GT, I agree. I think it should either be a full money back guarantee or a nominal tryout charge of say $25.

Your typical Frank Guru reply. When the facts kick you in the ass, call the other guy names.

Yes, Mr. Console, I have a lot of time on my hands. That happens when you get to be my age. You'll have to take my word for it, because it's not likely you'll live that long, as mouthy as you are to people.

Since my demented mind is convinced that you work closely with Dave Powers aka Clint Tracy, and since I'm so obviously obsessed with you, I'm going to carry my obsession to a higher plane. I'm going to be visiting my sister and brother in law in San Diego in August for a couple of weeks. While I'm there, I'll be sure to take some time out to visit the States Attorney's office, the San Diego branches of the US Attorney General's office and FBI and/or whoever my lawyer friend tells me would have jurisdiction over what I'm interested in. I'll be sure to make appointments far in advance so that somebody there will be waiting to see me.

When I show up, I'll have printouts of the petrinent data and documentation, both paper and electronic, pointing to a certain company I'm going to be discussing mail fraud, deceptive practice, false advertising, and whatever else my lawyer friend tells me might apply, as it pertains to RPM Information Systems. I'm know how to be very annoying and persistent along the lines of lighting a fire under the rears of the government. I spent 40 years as a career with that being one of my duties. I WILL get something done.

And when Mr. Tracy (assuming that's not you) wants to know why I've suddenly taken such a great interest in his operation, I won't tell him it's because I don't like scammers who bait the gullible public with "get rich quick" magic medicine black box wonders. I'll just say:

"Tom Console sent me."

[PaceAdvantage]

It's very difficult to truly say whether one person is really another when posting or browsing on the web.

There are instances where one can be sure, but for the most part, it is very easy to disguise one's identity here in cyberspace...

[cj]

I'm quite sure I could create about 20 different user names and post from 20 totally different IP addresses and list confirm each user name with a different email in a day if I really wanted to make the effort. TomC always seems to know just when to show up.

[penguinfan]

CJ, when I ran a sports handicapping web-site for a guy and someone sent a very personal threatening e-mail from a hotmail account it took less than 2 days to track down the nitwit. Certainly someone a bit brighter than this guy could avoid getting busted, but it better be your intention from the VERY beginning to remain anonymous or you can be run down with a little help from your site host, you might be surprised what info is readily available out there to identify someone. PA does relly not have cause to spend the time and energy tracking down where these users began, let the buyer beware.

Game Theory, again I agree with you completely, offer a trial or send me some plays and the basis of them if you expect me to shell out that kind of cash, great example is Nathan from Equisim, not only does he give out a free trial, but he was willing to answer tons of questions before you spend 1 cent. His software may or may not be for you, but I like the way he does business. On the other hand I asked (via e-mail) TomC for a sample of what his program does, he gave me some song and dance about not being able to print out something that could be e-mailed so I would just have to buy the program and take advantage of the money back guarantee. HUGE RED FLAG THERE!!! Color me stupid enough to believe you can't print out something and e-mail it to me, can't you run the software (I offered to pay for the data file) and just type them into an e-mail for me? Really got the feeling he did not want me to see what the software did before sending a check. Compare that to someone who shows you the nuts and bolts of what their program does before you buy! Really not trying to tout Equisim here, just the way Nathan does business.

Penguinfan

[cj]

penguinfan,

If someone wants to remain anonymous, it is easy. If they do something stupid and then try to cover their identity later, that's a whole new ball game.

[Bobby]

What ever happened to FRank Guru? He was on a bbs at yahoo, but that was shut down.

[andicap]

HTR offers a demo to tool around with and some others do too -- some for a nominal ($10) fee, etc. Others offer the manual for free to download, which is also helpful.

I think with all the stuff we've posted here anyone who wants to buy Mr. Console's software knows what he's getting. The software may or may not be good but at least the people who read this board have seen both sides of the debate and have some facts to make up their mind.

The only thing I know about Mr. Console is I tested his "True Tenders" system out for someone a few years ago and it did not work (it was based on adjusting Beyer figures). Was supposed to pick certain % winners top 4 and it wasn't really close.

It did, however, carry a certain logic -- it wasn't off the wall. But it did not fulfil its promise as listed in the catalogs.

[Tom]

I have read this exchange before - on Yahoo. The names were changed to protect the clones.
Left posted elswhere that were only something like 16 plot senarios for all books? I guess that applies to internet flame wars as well.
Personally, I won't buy any of these programs because I am saving up my money to rent MonteyBanks' $5000 program.
I read good things about it (from Montey)

Tom: I remember HPU very well. More nuts there than in a Planter's factory. I didn't post there much. Didn't want to get involved. Check in once a day and read for 5-10 minutes, move on.

If a seller can't offer some kind of demo of his software, service, etc., and can't even give a few plays out, then like peng said, big red flag.

Remember a guy named Bob Victor, back in the 80's? He had one of the first handicapping programs for the PC, named "Power Horses". He bought mailing lists from whatever source and did mailouts (no internet as we knew it then).

Back in those days, it ran in DOS of course, you had to input the data manually from the Form, and it printed out one screen per race with a rating for each horse. He sold the thing for $50 plus $10 shipping (more if you wanted it sent overnight), with a moneyback guarantee for the full $50 (but not the shipping). What you got in the mail was a 5 1/4" floppy, and a manual of 12 stapled sheets. The program had been coded in QBASIC and was compiled in an EXE file. I reverse-engineered it with a hex editor. The program consisted of a very simple rating system based on consistency, money earned, speed figure, etc. It was a lot like the Mattel handheld from the mid 70's that picked horses (remember that?) except that it wasn't as complicated to input. Do I need to say that it found all the favorites and didn't come close to winning? I sent it back and had a $50 check within two weeks, no questions asked.

I ran into Mr. Victor about five years ago out at the Gold Coast. He said words to the effect of: "Jim, I sold almost 200 of those things. Only had about 70 people return it. For fifty bucks a lot of guys won't bother. But even if they did, I spent about a buck-twenty-five to mail it out and another fifty cents or so to send them a check if they wanted a refund. I made eight bucks on everybody who didn't like it and a clear fifty-eight on the ones who didn't return it. It took me three hours to write the thing, and I paid a hundred for the mailing list and another seven hundred or so for printing and postage of the flyers. I made over six thousand on it for maybe fifty hours of work."

Moneyback guarantees are good, except that most guys won't paper test something, and they'll end up losing many times that cost of the software. That part isn't refundable.

[TomC]

In reply to the many posts, I have a few points to make:

1)Restocking fees. My main reason for restocking fee is to weed out those curiousity seekers. There are many that will buy items knowing full well they will return it. They just want to see it. Anyone that is serious about buying and using a product does not care about a restocking fee, as they have no reason to buy. With the new program, 95% of the sales I make will be from people that have bought from me in the past. So they know what to expect and are not concerned about a refund. If they liked my past items, they will but the new one. If they didnt, they wont. But those who are mainly concerned, right off the bat, with "how do I get my money back" are not really serious about using the program. And, not to be sarcastic, but I have no time for things like that.
2)Cost of a program: No one takes the time factor into consideration. Besides the costs it took to get the job done, which was done at a fair price by Joe Z, what about the 3 to 6 hours a day I have spent for 3 years getting this project done? Am I supposed to just donate over 4,000 hours of my time? Time I could have spent with family enjoying myself, rather than tearing my hair out and going blind staing at a computer?
3)RPM: Did anyone here EVER buy something from RPM and not get a refund if they asked? If so, I would like to hear about it. Dave may hype things to get sales, like any good company and salesman will do. But he ALWAYS stands behind his word. He has never sold a product, then refused a refund if the buyer was not happy. I personally have nothing to do with RPM. It is run by Dave and his wife in California, and they market my products. When you get an ad from him about my product, the sales pitches you read about my products or anyone elses are from tests conducted by Dave. He legitimately does have a huge database. This is his business, and he downloads every day, about every track. That adds up over the years! You can investigate RPM, myself, or whomever you desire. No one has ever been treated unfair. No one has ever been ripped off. I have talked to Dave Powers many many times on the phone. I know that his beliefs are like mine. If you cheat someone, it will come back to get you. Live a clean honest life, and you still may get kicked around a lot (read the posts about me..haha!) but at least I can sleep well at night.
4)This one I know most bashers of me wont believe, but I have never posted under a different name. Think about it. Will anyone really believe posts like that? "Hey I just bought Toms stuff...its great and will make you rich!" Do you really think I would post stuff like that, and think you would read it and order my program? Lets get real here now. I stated this earlier...just about any sale I get is a repeat buyer. I am not out to try and con people into sales. If anyone wants to buy my products, they will buy. If they are against it, no sales letter in the world will change their minds. And I dont want to try.

Well I made the points that I wanted to make. I am sure there are more, but I cant rememeber them all, and dont want to put everyone to sleep. If anyone wants my help, you know where to reach me.
Tom C

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by TomC

1)Restocking fees. My main reason for restocking fee is to weed out those curiousity seekers. There are many that will buy items knowing full well they will return it. They just want to see it. Anyone that is serious about buying and using a product does not care about a restocking fee, as they have no reason to buy. With the new program, 95% of the sales I make will be from people that have bought from me in the past. So they know what to expect and are not concerned about a refund. If they liked my past items, they will but the new one. If they didnt, they wont. But those who are mainly concerned, right off the bat, with "how do I get my money back" are not really serious about using the program. And, not to be sarcastic, but I have no time for things like that.

If they don't want to put themselves at risk for large amounts of money with no recourse for a refund when buying a program they can't try out in advance, then they're not serious?! Give me a break! I don't think even you really believe that. You're the one who isn't serious about backing up your product.

What is a curiousity seeker, exactly? Someone who thinks that your program might be right for them but isn't sure? Most businesses would consider people like that potential valuable customers, not annoyances to be brushed off. Which is exactly why you make a demo or have some way to expose a potential buyer to what they're getting for their money. If you want to limit your sales by making yourself look like a con man, then go ahead, but don't pretend you're taking the high ground. I will never understand business people who spend all their time "protecting" themselves from the customer. It is the customer at risk, not you!

Notice nothing of this has anything to do with whether or not your program is any good. It might be awesome, and I wouldn't begrudge you charging $500 or more for a great program. But I would never consider buying a program from someone who puts stuff all over his web site that screams, "Don't trust me!" and neither will a lot of other serious people. Don't insult me by telling me what I think or that I am not serious. I've never had a reason to return any piece of software, probably because I deal exclusively with people who practice good business.

The San Diego Better Business Bureau has a few complaints about Mr. Powers.

The "always give a refund" doesn't mean it's right to practice deceptive advertising. 40% winners, 33% profit (1.33 ROI). blah blah blah. Every ad, the same lame promise. That's called deceptive advertising/false advertising.

It doesn't matter if he'll give a refund or not. He's LYING to the public. He knows darned well that most people won't bother to ask for a refund. He puts out a cheesy little stapled package of 15 sheets, puts them into a mailer that costs 5 cents (in bulk), puts 60 cents of postage on it, and sends it out. It costs him less than $1.00 and he charges from $25 to $100 for it. He can stand a lot of returns and still make money. It's an OLD marketing trick, and companies like Ronco, K-Tel, etc. have built empires selling junk, based on the fact that people are too lazy to ask for their money back.

I've tested your famous Q system, and your famous FG system (thread listed elsewhere here). They do exactly what they're expected to do: a big fat loss. I can do about as well spinning a wheel and playing the number that comes up. If you can sleep at night, knowing that you're bilking people out of their money with worthless methods, and that they're losing their ass at the track with your systems until they figure out that they don't work, then sleep well. I know I wouldn't rest easilly if I did that to people.

[Myhorse1_X]

I wonder how many of the "Bashers" have ever designed and tried to sell software of their own.

It is a great experience. It really makes you realize that those who criticize others, do not have the guts to try it themselves.
All they can do is be negative.

MyHorse1

[Derek2U]

Guys give it up please. If U buy any software, specially in racing,
just hand the $$ over & stop whining. So many of U sound like
fixed-income whiners ... why are U betting at all? If U can't afford
this game then make paper bets or bet VERY small sums ... but
STOP yapping about .... "oh he dint return my $$" .... u sound like
grandmas living on cash "4-soda-bottle-returns". (I have never
returned a bottle 4 deposit) >> And GT ... do U really think that
many or most buyers are above average in Any dimension?
If I sold software I'd tell U straight away .... Don't bother me with
ur moronic ideas ... pay up ... use it ... keep it or discard it ... just
DO NOT even think of a refund. If $100 is too steep, then take up
bowling.