It is simply the horse and nothing else

[Dave Schwartz]

Years ago I had a client who was a cmall owner/trainer on the CA fair circuit.

I remember him telling me that he was experiencing "bad luck" because he had started 6 horses that year and all 6 had broken down. Funny thing was that the previous year he had 8 horses and 5 brokedown.

Just bad horses? I don't think so.


But just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Years ago I had a client who was a cmall owner/trainer on the CA fair circuit.

I remember him telling me that he was experiencing "bad luck" because he had started 6 horses that year and all 6 had broken down. Funny thing was that the previous year he had 8 horses and 5 brokedown.

Just bad horses? I don't think so.

There are many incompetents on every backstretch in North America

[cj]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Horse makes the trainer. not the other way around

If only this were true these days. There are many times trainers are a MUCH more important factor than the horse because you just know a miracle is coming. Of course the horse runs the race, but it will many times bear little resemblance to anything the horse has done before when in the hands of some of these miracle workers.

[Warren Henry]

Why bother to argue with this guy as it is obvious that he knows all about everything.

Besides, we want his money in the pool.

[bisket]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Who runs the race? HINT: It is NOT the trainer.

We would NEVER have heard of Louie Roussel or Cam Gambolotti if it weren't for Risen Star and Spend a Buck.

Even old Buddy Delp wouldn't have been prominent outside of the Maryland/ NY circuit if Bid had not landed in his barn.

best thing that ever happened to buddy delp: the bid
worst thing that ever happened to bud delp: ronnie franklin
sometimes the jock can really screw the horse up

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by cj

If only this were true these days. There are many times trainers are a MUCH more important factor than the horse because you just know a miracle is coming. Of course the horse runs the race, but it will many times bear little resemblance to anything the horse has done before when in the hands of some of these miracle workers.

The horse does that running :John Henry had it in him so did Stymie and Seabiscuit: the HORSE had the potential

These examples of a ugly duckling becoming a swan or course are true but are VERY VERY rare. There are more Green Monkeys and other ruined by trainers than the other way around

[cj]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

The horse does that running :John Henry had it in him so did Stymie and Seabiscuit: the HORSE had the potential

These examples of a ugly duckling becoming a swan or course are true but are VERY VERY rare. There are more Green Monkeys and other ruined by trainers than the other way around

They are certainly not very rare. Maybe they don't become swans, but they become much better than they were. There are 30% and even 40% trainers popping up all over the place. Horses with a bunch of career starts suddenly run 10 and 15 lengths better than they ever have with certain trainers. Maybe you don't have them at Hastings where few care and fewer bet, but they populate most circuits in the country.

So yes, of course it is the horse that does the running. But handicapping, you better know which ones are capable of moving horses up with miraculous turnarounds. Many horses that do have shown no signs of such ability in the past.

[bisket]

i never bet a trainer. i always bet the horse. i only analyze trainers to try and figure what kind of effort i can expect from the horse in the race i'm handicapping. now i do look at a horse a little harder if he's been claimed by a trainer i know has a history of moving horse up in class, but that situation is very difficult to analyze.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Yeah, just open that stall gate and let that horse go to the track on his own and rely on it to work itself into shape and not go goofing around the shedrow with his equine pals, or go getting himself and other horses hurt by exercising frivolously without a rider on top to guide him and keep order out there. Rely on it to come back on its own, and not run off to some green patch of grass, on track or off, or go out and sow its wild oats instead with other runaways. Let the horse figure out what to eat and where to get it. Let the horse figurer out for itself what class level it should enter itself, and rely on it to know just how fast it is running early to conserve enough energy for the entire distance and be withing a couple fifths of a second of his optiim, and where it should be in traffic with all the other loose horses out there. After all, it's all the horse.

[46zilzal]

Who runs the race? Not the owner, or the trainer.

Who's record is listed, at most, ten times in the DRF?

Does the trainer set fractions, go wide, show form cycles, have surface/dstance preferences? Don't thinks so.

Old Hollywood has done a good job in getting the "Boots Malone" image into everyone's head, or Salty O'Rourke......as if they could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[WinterTriangle]

Originally Posted by fmolf

Mr. 46 you are way off base when you say the "horse is it and nothing else"..heres my saying "a trainer by himself cannot win a horse race but he certainly can lose one".

Sort of what Mike Smith said about riding Zenyatta.

I think 46 is speaking in the "purest" sense, and when I view it like that, I agree. Asmussen probably can't "improve" Rachel Alexandra. IMHO, he can ruin her, and of course many will argue that he "ruined Curlin" later on down the line?

However, in the not-pure sense, I look at trainers like I look at teachers.

Tell me where would Helen Keller be without Annie Sullivan? Yes, it was "all Helen", a highly intelligent child, but Annie had to bring it out in her....otherwise,as we know, Helen Keller would have been just another "wild child".

[Tom]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Who runs the race? Not the owner, or the trainer.

Who's record is listed, at most, ten times in the DRF?

Does the trainer set fractions, go wide, show form cycles, have surface/dstance preferences? Don't thinks so.

Old Hollywood has done a good job in getting the "Boots Malone" image into everyone's head, or Salty O'Rourke......as if they could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Who feeds the horse?
Who trains the horse?
Who provides medical care to the horse?
Who enters the horse?
Who puts the equipment on the horse?

You've been watching to many Mr. Ed re-runs.
Of course, of course.

[ryesteve]

46's argument makes as much sense as saying that a restaurant is all about the ingredients used in the menu, and not the chef who puts it all together.

[dvlander]

As in many of the discussions with 46, we're getting to the point where we're beating a dead horse.

If 46 would have just said that the horse matters more than the trainer, I'd have agreed. But when you say that it's "the horse and NOTHING else", it implies that it is the horse 100% exclusive of any other factor, including the trainer. Clearly his own comments in this thread dispute that statement.

Also, I think the condescending comments such as:

Who runs the race? Not the owner, or the trainer.

are a bit insulting to the knowledgeable posters on this board and add zero credence to whatever flimsy argument he is trying to make.

Dale

[Wickel]

Originally Posted by dvlander

Also, I think the condescending comments ... are a bit insulting to the knowledgeable posters on this board and add zero credence to whatever flimsy argument he is trying to make.

AMEN!